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This is our discussion of the contemporary fantasy novel...

A Shadow in Summer by Daniel Abraham
(2006. This is the first book of a 4-part series.)

I've really enjoyed Abraham's other works, his sword & sorcery fantasy series Dagger & Coin, his urban fantasy series Black Sun's Daughter (as "MLN Hannover"), and his scifi Expanse (with Ty Franck). I've been looking forward to finally reading this series, too.

Prolog

First Impressions

It looks like we have a story set in a society with roughly Japanese influence, maybe late Warring States period. Gestures/posture are important to communication. Titles are by suffix, "-kvo" meaning teacher.

Someplace in the Khaiem there's a school. The ultimate goal is to produce "poets", those who can bind the "andat" (spirits). It seems to work like this: Like a monastery, those who are sent there have be disowned by their family, cut off from inheritance; a good place to send unwanted get. The teachers are sadistic and beat the kids for the slightest misstep. If a student say "I'm sick of this crap" and walks out, he passes the test and gets promoted to teacher or "black robes," and gets to be sadistic to the other kids. If a black robe decides he's sick of being a sadistic bully, he passes the test and gets to study under a poet in the hopes he can bind andat.

There's an interesting head-fake to the prolog, which follows a student named Otah, and might seem to be the start of a YA trope. But then the next chapters discard Otah and follow some entirely different adult characters, one of whom was barely tangential to the prolog.

G33z3r wrote: "There's an interesting head-fake to the prolog, which follows a student named Otah, and might seem to be the start of a YA trope. But then the next chapters discard Otah and follow some entirely different adult characters, one of whom was barely tangential to the prolog. ..."

& yet the blurb on the back of my book promises me that (spoiler?) "One man, Otah Machi, stands alone at the crossroads of history." At first I did think we'd moved on to a new set of protagonists (still suspecting Otah would turn up sometime, but probably later in the book). Now I wonder if I've already met him & think I have the likeliest candidate picked out. (I did wonder about this character, but he didn't seem to have much in common with Otah personality-wise. Now he's spoken up a bit more, and it's seeming even more possible.)

I'm only about three chapters in at this point & enjoying it. A couple of times I've almost started this book in the past but thought it looked like it might be slow going. (Maybe I was particularly slowed down by the postures of *various things* -- a detail I like but find hard to picture. Partly inspired by Noh, perhaps? I esp. like that you can perform the postures in an insolent way, although that's esp. hard to picture.) I'm finding the pace is actually pretty quick -- the prologue told its own short story, in a way, and the opening chapters have already set up a potentially war-inciting incident being plotted and a protagonist on the run.

It didn't jump out at me as Japanese, I keep picturing something more like Tibet :) But definitely Asian. I liked how so much of their communication came through posing, very unique.

I'm two thirds of the way through, but I've already gone an bought the omnibus of all four books (the four together was only slightly more expensive than buying any single book, even if I took into account I got the first book for free from TOR and thus I was buying the first book twice). I'm pretty sure I'll be reading this series through to it's end. I really enjoy the writing, the characters, the atmosphere...

..and the concept of the andats. Which is an interesting contrast with our series group read which have the furies as a similar concept, except one where it is easy to control a fury, in fact expected of everyone, whereas andats are getting harder and harder to control. But they are both spirits given form controlled by a human. And interesting to compare the writing / world building quality of the two tales, though still very different in underlying premise (one ancient roman, one asian-themed, one kind of epic end of worldness while the other is currently more or less at one city level as of now, just some petty politicking of important people)

I notice time is described in candles, or fractions thereof, which I understand, and in hands, which I don't. A measurement of the movement of the sun?

I also notice Abraham mentions netting and bugs a lot (ticks and gnats in particular) along with the heat. So something between temperate and tropical.

Lastly, I notice that one of Abraham's major characters, Amat Kyaan, is an accountant. In his Dagger & Coin series, one of his major characters is also an accountant.

Andrea wrote: "...and the concept of the andats...."

There's only been hints on the nature of andats in the first half I've read so far. They seem to be quite specialized, such as "Removing-the-Part-that-Continues" (aka Seedless.) And they seem to be just single abstract concepts until some poet authors a verse that both binds them to the poet's will and gives them form and their other, more human-like characteristics.

Yes, Abraham is definitely interested in finance and trade (view spoiler)[ although in this book, the most detailed it really gets is "cotton good for Saratkeht." In that way, it seems like a lot of "space merchants" type sci fi, where the characters are always making smart trades but of course there's an unpredictably untrustworthy client responsible for all the action... (hide spoiler)] It makes me think of other SFF books that are interested in economics-- Stephenson's Barowue Cycle, notably; Gladstone's Full Fathom Five; maybe Novik's Spinning Silver?

As for the andat, it's interesting to have a magic system that also incorporates an element of art criticism. Finishing power because the great themes have all been taken by past masters? Perhaps everyone should give up writing haiku because you just can't top Basho ... (view spoiler)[ I was expecting to learn more by witnessing an andat being bound or passed from one poet to another. Not in Book 1 I guess. (hide spoiler)] Also, I keep thinking of the tulpa (as featured in the Supernatural TV show because I don't have that much familiarity with the concept.)

Hillary wrote: "It makes me think of other SFF books that are interested in economics-- Stephenson's Barowue Cycle, notably; Gladstone's Full Fathom Five; maybe Novik's Spinning Silver?..."

All of Gladstone's Craft series is about different economic models. Moon's Vatta's War series is about competition between great space trading companies that eventually spills over into open space warfare. And if you want space economics and nothing but space economics, Nathan Lowel's Quarter Share will teach you more about the interplanetary coffee trade than you ever wanted to know. :)

But here we have a very (overly?) subtle plot to destroy the economy of Saratkeht. (It's easy to see that if that was your only goal, a blunt assassination of Heshel would do the trick. For a man on whom the entire city's prosperity rests, he wanders alone in some pretty rough places without even a bodyguard. But I suppose an assassination would be quickly attributed to rivals, while the convoluted plot here is harder to fix blame.

I have to say, I was surprised by the end. (view spoiler)[ It was a powerful reversal of the Prolog to have Otah make the ends-justify-the-means murderous choice.

Abraham does a lot to convey Otah's conflict/indecision, so I guess I can believe the decision (including that he tries unconvincingly to justify it as vigilante justice by getting Maj involved.) But I'm not sure his ultimate motivation. Just to save Maati from ending up like Heshkai? That seems maybe most believable, although the timing seems odd: would you really murder someone on behalf of the guy you just found out was sleeping with your girlfriend?

To avoid mass infanticide of Galtic children? Does he really think the fall of Saraykeht as a city is going to be a much more humane alternative? Is he not worried about conflict without andat for defense, or does he just assume there are enough other andat out there? (In general, I'm disappointed by characters' lack of foresight about possible war. True, I have the advantage of knowing this is Book 1 of 4, but Amat's supposed to be the smartest woman in the room: actual war as a consequence/instead of trade war should have occurred to her sooner.)

Seedless was one of the most interesting characters; it's hard to think we won't be seeing him/it again.

My prediction for Book 2 has been that we'll visit northern Machi "in winter" & finally meet those brothers, but the sailing-around-the-islands-for-two-seasons prospects of the ending makes me wonder if a return to Khaiem will take longer. (hide spoiler)]

Hillary wrote: "I have to say, I was surprised by the end...."

Agreed, the ending was quite unexpected, (view spoiler)[and a bit of a letdown.

Not exactly the heroic conclusion one expects in epic fantasy. After all, they kill the victim, not the perpetrator. And, as you say, a reversal of Otah's earlier philosophy.


Hillary wrote: "But I'm not sure his ultimate motivation...."

Otah's only perspective on events comes from Seedless (I imagine the andat's voice in sibilants, like a snake whispering in the ear.) Seedless dismisses the idea that releasing the andats will lead to an invasion ("andats aren't predictable"), and, after all, the Galt plan failed. Instead, Seedless argues the consequences: 1) Wilsin will kill Liat. 2) Maati will become miserable as Heshkai. 3) Mass abortion in Galt. 4) Seedless reveals Otah's identity ("though I think it’s really very small of you to be concerned about that." :)

So, he thinks he's saving Liat's life, Maati's sanity, Galt's unborn & his anonymity, at a cost of Heshkai's life, Saraykeht's cotton trade, and some abstract concept of"justice."

Interesting that Otah tries to deflect his own guilt by having Maj kill Heshkai, only to be forced to perform the deed himself, anyway, when Maj lacks the strength. And then they go off on a cruise together :)

Also interesting, when Otah learns that his girlfriend and his best friend have been having an affair in his absence, his reaction is to bless their relationship and walk away. So, he didn't really love Liat in the first place? Or, he loves her so much he thinks Maati is the better choice for her?


Hillary wrote: "Seedless was one of the most interesting characters; it's hard to think we won't be seeing him/it again....."

Though, according to what we've been told about andat binding, if "Seedless" returns it will have the "Removing-the-Part-that-Continues" ability, but a new personality, as shaped by the verse of poet that binds him.

(hide spoiler)]

My favorite quote is from Seedless:

“Having a secret is like sitting at a roof’s edge with a rock. As long as you have the rock, you have the power of life and death over anyone below you. Drop the rock, and you’ve just got a nice view."

G33z3r wrote: "My favorite quote is from Seedless:

“Having a secret is like sitting at a roof’s edge with a rock. As long as you have the rock, you have the power of life and death over anyone below you. Drop th..."

Seedless is my favorite character. He's both victim and villain. He's not human so doesn't think like us. And he gets to say what others are thinking, as well as getting the best lines, because he doesn't care about human social niceties.

Like his dealings with Wilsin, it was a "nice working with you, thanks for your help, so sorry the repercussions of working with me will likely result in your death or even the destruction of your people but that's not my problem, I'm busy with other ventures now, bye!"

After all, what's the worst anyone can do to punish Seedless? The box was intended to be physical torture which he couldn't feel, so at worst he was just bored stuck there. It was Heshai who suffered. The only other thing they could do is get rid of him so he'd stop mucking about, but that's what he wants anyway, to be released.

And it's cute how he's currently fond of Matai, we'll see how long that lasts if Matai becomes his poet, I suppose if you come up with the right binding you can have the andat at least be fond of you rather than hate you. Heshai built in the hate that he had for himself into the personification of Seedless.

Hillary wrote: "& yet the blurb on the back of my book promises me that (spoiler?) "One man, Otah Machi, stands alone at the crossroads of history." At first I did think we'd moved on to a new set of protagonists..."

After I read Chronin last month I looked at the blub & Å·±¦ÓéÀÖ description and was appalled by surprise it would have spoiled had I read the blub before reading the work itself.

You were right when you guessed Otah was a character we'd already met.

Andrea wrote: "Seedless is my favorite character. He's both victim and villain. He's not human l..."

Sadly too late for me to nominate him for March Madness. :)

BTW, have you finished?

G33z3r wrote: "Andrea wrote: "Seedless is my favorite character. He's both victim and villain. He's not human l..."

Sadly too late for me to nominate him for March Madness. :)

BTW, have you finished?"

About 50 pages to go. I'm a bit past Liat having a near death experience.

BTW, anyone else had issues with the similar names?

There's Otah, Oshai, Orai (when Oshai first showed up I thought it was Otah)

Then there's the million names that start with M - Marchat, Maj, Maati, Machi, Matai and there's a few more, even Amat (all those a's and m's). I can keep them more or less straight through context but if you ask me to list the names I don't guarantee I can remember them right :)

G33z3r wrote: "Hillary wrote: "I have to say, I was surprised by the end...."

Agreed, the ending was quite unexpected, and a bit of a letdown.

Not exactly the heroic conclusion one expects in epic fantasy. Aft..."


I don't think I was let down, I think I was pleasantly surprised to find that it didn't end up being what we expected from the blurb.

(view spoiler)[Otah was expected to "save the world", no one said it wasn't by becoming an assassin and murdering someone who was himself a kind of pitiful victim in a dirty alleyway. No glorious battle bearing a shining sword or blasting magic, not even any recognition since it really was a kind of dirty act that anyone would be embarrassed to do (especially as he was hoping he could get the girl to do it for him). And it's even questionable if this was justice or even the right thing to do. Just as it was questionable that Amat was blindly being forced by her own guilt to expose the conspiracy regardless of the consequences. Both of them just wanted to "do the right thing" but there are always pros and cons and consequences, some of which you're aware of but decide are acceptable, and others you didn't even consider. It's human not be to able to see all side effects of an action, let alone to conveniently pretend you didn't even think of some of them (you know, maybe it will just go away on it's own).

I'm interested to see what comes of it. I mean does Sarayakhet completely fall without Seedless or do the people just have to stop being "lazy" and get those cotton seeds out the hard way, juts like everyone else. Sure, they'll lose profit since you'll need to pay workers but I don't think that's the end of the world for the city. It's not like Seedless could help the cotton crops to grow if there was a drought which should be more devastating.

G33z3r wrote: "So, he didn't really love Liat in the first place?"

I got the feeling he wasn't really all that attached to her. He loved her, he slept with her, but he didn't trust her. And apparently the rule is you can't love and sleep with someone but not trust them. And since she already found someone else, he could break up with her for all intents and purposes guilt free and took the opportunity.

Either way, it was an interesting twist and I'm curious to see where it goes. I think the blurb wasn't really intended to just cover Otah's destiny in the first book, I'm guessing he'll have to deal with bigger things in the next three.

We all assumed that he'd become a poet, but after seeing Heshai, who was just a tool of the Khaiem, I don't think poets are really all that powerful or in a position to be world saviours kind of thing.

(hide spoiler)]

I do think the idea of ending with Otah making his morally questionable choice is undercut a bit by having him sail away and not seeing the immediate impact. mild series spoiler: (view spoiler)[ The destruction, or perhaps heavy ransacking, of Saraykeht is almost treated as ancient history by the time Book 2 rolls around, and I don't think it's really until the end of Book 4, in the ruins of a different city, that consequences to the regular public are generally reckoned with (of course, by that point, there are a whole lot of other consequences piling up as well). (hide spoiler)]

G33z3r wrote: "My favorite quote is from Seedless: 'Having a secret is like sitting at a roof’s edge with a rock....'"

Andrea wrote: "Seedless ... gets to say what others are thinking, as well as getting the best lines, because he doesn't care about human social niceties."

Definitely. The secret quote was memorable; although it doesn't seem Seedless could have actually anticipated it, it also seemed to foreshadow the incident with the falling roof tiles.

Andrea wrote: "I don't think I was let down, I think I was pleasantly surprised to find that it didn't end up being what we expected from the blurb."

Abraham does a lot of working within but also subverting genre tropes. (I think he definitely does this in Dagger & Coin, but I think it's more dramatic here.) It seems pretty unusual that (view spoiler)[ Seedless' plot basically succeeds (Maj loses her baby, and that's an outcome that would have been heroically prevented in a lot of fantasy stories) and it sort of has the planned effect, but ultimately instead of dying or otherwise freeing Seedless, Heshai just goes through a pretty severe depression and with time comes out of into a mild but functional depression. City-threatening consequences do occur, but more because of how this particular group of characters is drawn together and interacts than because of either the success or failure of the Seedless/Galt plot. (hide spoiler)]

G33z3r wrote: (view spoiler)["Also interesting, when Otah learns that his girlfriend and his best friend have been having an affair in his absence, his reaction is to bless their relationship and walk away. So, he didn't really love Liat in the first place? Or, he loves her so much he thinks Maati is the better choice for her?" (hide spoiler)]

Otah's interesting in that he's someone who is very concerned with doing the right thing but also often makes selfish choices. (view spoiler)[ So I felt like maybe his relationship with Liat was always somewhat superficial, and when he got interested in other things, he just followed his own desires, with some mild guilt but no great regrets.

I'm not totally sure how I feel about that relationship or about Liat in general. At the beginning, she seemed competent if interestly but annoyingly ambitious. When she has to present to the Khai, we learn she's not that competent after all, or at least definitely not ready to fill Amat's shoes. Toward the end of the book, she really starts to seem incompetent, not picking up on the level of strangeness even after spending day after day with Maj and Oshai (it actually made me feel better when she got down on herself for not realizing that Maj was not seeking an abortion; she tells herself she should have seen it. I was nodding along: yes, Liat, you should have). (hide spoiler)] I mean, probably I shouldn't put so much value on competence at one's job, but it's hard for me to like an incompetent character.

Hillary wrote: " not picking up on the level of strangeness even after spending day after day with Maj and Oshai"

In her defense, Maj couldn't speak "English" or whatever Liat speaks, and Liat couldn't speak Nippu. So Otai had the freedom of telling either side whatever they wanted/needed to hear to convince them both of the fraud. A translator with an ulterior motive is a very, very dangerous thing.

Liat is also an apprentice, I mean kind of unfair given she's maybe done some simple clerical work for Amat suddenly to be thrust into the middle of a big scandal. She's had no training for this role, so yes, she's incompetent, but with Amat out of the picture Wilsin had no on else. And it was probably to Wilsin's benefit to have someone so incompetent that they are spending all their time concentrating on not messing up the negotiations that she has no time to question the fishiness of the whole affair.

Imagine you're hired as an accountant's assistant (so you're not even doing that job entirely on your own, but with supervision) but now they want you to be a high level negotiator (with absolutely no one around to help you). They are two different skill sets! I guess I've had that kind of thing happen to me at work too so I sympathize. In fact just yesterday I got dragged into a meeting as the "expert" in something I don't actually know anything about...no idea how they picked me...

I didn't like or dislike her either way though I felt sorry for her, but I would find it unrealistic if everyone were perfect/competent. In fact I hate books where people don't mess up or struggle. As I read in a review for McKinley's works, one thing the person liked about her writing is that she took the "special one" gave her a sword and then tossed her onto the battle field. But instead of being spontaneously the best swordswoman that ever lived, she fumbled trying to put the sword on, complained how it banged against her leg as she moved, found it to be heavy, etc. Made me want to read that book!

Contrast that to the Riddle-Master of Hed we just read where Morgon seems to learn every magic power anyone offers to teach him within hours, is the best Riddle Master ever. But then he's special with some kind of mystical destiny, literally some kind of saviour or destroyer (we don't know yet) born with stars imprinted on his forehead for all to know. Liat is just a girl. Remember that, she's probably barely 20. Apprentices start young since they don't have universities, your schooling was your apprenticeship.

So not saying you should or should not like her, I was ambivalent towards her, not sure we really needed her POV even. Just it's not her fault she was incompetent, in fact it was key for Seedless' plot to succeed so he had to ensure someone like her was in that role. Her incompetence was actually key to the plot rather than a plot device I feel. Seedless would have been the incompetent one otherwise and that doesn't make sense, he was too clever to make that mistake, eg have Amat as negotiator, his plan would have fallen apart on day one. He needed a pawn. And books tend to ignore the POV of the pawn, focusing on heroes and villains only, so an interesting take to give her POV here.