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Hello Everyone,

For the week of February 2nd - February 8th, we are reading Chapter Nine of Landslide

The tenth week's reading assignment is:

Week Ten - February 2 - February 8
Chapter Nine: Lonely Acres (pages 257-281)

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

This book is being kicked off on December 1st.

We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, local bookstore or on your Kindle. Make sure to pre-order now if you haven't already. This weekly thread will be opened up February 2nd

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.

Bentley will be leading this discussion and back-up will be Assisting Moderators Kathy, Jill, Bryan, and Jerome.

Welcome,

~Jerome

TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL

by Jonathan Darman (no photo)

REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS - ON EACH WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREAD - WE ONLY DISCUSS THE PAGES ASSIGNED OR THE PAGES WHICH WERE COVERED IN PREVIOUS WEEKS. IF YOU GO AHEAD OR WANT TO ENGAGE IN MORE EXPANSIVE DISCUSSION - POST THOSE COMMENTS IN ONE OF THE SPOILER THREADS. THESE CHAPTERS HAVE A LOT OF INFORMATION SO WHEN IN DOUBT CHECK WITH THE CHAPTER OVERVIEW AND SUMMARY TO RECALL WHETHER YOUR COMMENTS ARE ASSIGNMENT SPECIFIC. EXAMPLES OF SPOILER THREADS ARE THE GLOSSARY, THE BIBLIOGRAPHY, THE INTRODUCTION AND THE BOOK AS A WHOLE THREADS.

Notes:

It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.

Citations:

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If you need help - here is a thread called the Mechanics of the Board which will show you how:

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Also the citation thread:

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Introduction Thread:

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Table of Contents and Syllabus

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Glossary

Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed.

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Bibliography

There is a Bibliography where books cited in the text are posted with proper citations and reviews. We also post the books that the author used in his research or in his notes. Please also feel free to add to the Bibliography thread any related books, etc with proper citations. No self promotion, please. We will be adding to this thread as we read along.

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Book as a Whole and Final Thoughts - SPOILER THREAD

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by Jonathan Darman (no photo)

Directions on how to participate in a book offer and how to follow the t's and c's - Landslide - What Do I Do Next?

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All, we do not have to do citations regarding the book or the author being discussed during the book discussion on these discussion threads - nor do we have to cite any personage in the book being discussed while on the discussion threads related to this book.

However if we discuss folks outside the scope of the book or another book is cited which is not the book and author discussed then we do have to do that citation according to our citation rules. That makes it easier to not disrupt the discussion.

Hello Everyone,

For the week of February 2nd-February 8th we are reading Chapter Nine of Landslide

The tenth week’s reading assignment is:

Week Ten - February 2 - February 8
Chapter Nine - Lonely Acres - pages 257 to 281

Chapter Overview and Summary

Lonely Acres

LBJ’s anxiety over the war grows, putting a greater toll on his marriage. Johnson signs the Medicare bill and the Voting Rights Act into law, as well as the first federal law funding education on a nationwide scale. No end seems in sight for the continuing war in Vietnam--both further military action and diplomatic overtures fail to bring North Vietnam to the negotiating table. A nationwide crime wave captures America’s imagination.

We are open folks.

(Page 266) "About 70 percent ...think of the book as a reflection on American life, this collision between the desperate, ruthless, wandering, savage part of American life, and the other, which is insular and safe, more or less." The quote is from Truman Capote on his book In Cold Blood.

Anyone who is old enough to remember, how did you feel in the mid-60's? Anyone read Capote's book during that time?

by Truman Capote

I'm too young, Kathy, but I found this section very interesting. I think the author is trying to give us some culture history to give us context. The whole social mores were changing and TV, books, and the movies began to reflect more realistic themes.

Darman states that the crime statistics did not change much, but people believed things were worse...perception plays an important role here.

I am wondering - do you think the country was still suffering from the shock of Kennedy's assassination and then Vietnam was just too much for them to bear making them feel almost like a "depressed person" feels seeing little hope or good around them? With Kennedy they seemed to have that happy feeling even though with the Cuban Missile Crisis - they were like ostriches sticking their heads in the sand.

Perhaps, it had to be a myriad of things I would guess. There just doesn't seem to be one catalyst for the unrest during this time. I'm guessing more reading on this time period is in order for me to start understanding what was happening. I have an older brother who fought in Vietnam and life in general has just been tough for him.

Vietnam has been tough on so many of the returning veterans and as a country we should have done more for them and still can and should.

I think the assassination had something to do with it. We had Cuban Missile Crisis (raised threat of actual nuclear war), JFK's assassination, Civil Rights and riots, growing counter-culture movement, then Vietnam and LBJ's struggle to keep on top of that all coming together in a few years. These seem to be big changes and people do feel unsettled with big changes.

And I just have to mention the Frank Church scene because I am from Idaho. And I do like Johnson's reply to him (p. 263) "Next time you're in trouble out in Idaho, Frank, you ask Walter to come help."

Committing troops to Vietnam was a tough decision for LBJ, (and any president going to war) but he had to look sure of the decision or I imagine the unrest would have even been worse for USA.

Bryan wrote: "I think the assassination had something to do with it. We had Cuban Missile Crisis (raised threat of actual nuclear war), JFK's assassination, Civil Rights and riots, growing counter-culture movem..."

We are lucky to have had LBJ then - a details man - because there were a lot of balls in the air.

I don't know Bentley. I think LBJ may have tried too hard to outshine the Kennedy mythology and dropped the ball. Bill Moyers said that LBJ should be more candid with the American public, because many saw the disconnect between what LBJ said and what was actually happening.

Kathy,
I only read In Cold Blood much later.

I was very young in 1965 and oblivious to much that was going on. Vietnam was not an issue for me until the late sixties. I was from Sioux Falls, South Dakota, which at the time had almost no black families. I was unaware of the race riots in 1964, although I read about them today at . Watts, of course, woke everyone up.

The 60's grew more and more unsettled as the decade advanced. I'm sure that the Kennedy assassination, Cuban Missile Crisis and Civil Rights unrest and, eventually the Vietnam controversy all had a lot to do with it. Young people started to feel that they had all the answers and that the people in charge had it all wrong. We were naive.


by Truman Capote

Brian wrote: "I don't know Bentley. I think LBJ may have tried too hard to outshine the Kennedy mythology and dropped the ball. Bill Moyers said that LBJ should be more candid with the American public, because m..."

Indeed, Brian, in this chapter, we see the development of the growing lies that LBJ and his administration begin to say. I think this does erode LBJ's presidency and the office itself.

Brian wrote: "I don't know Bentley. I think LBJ may have tried too hard to outshine the Kennedy mythology and dropped the ball. Bill Moyers said that LBJ should be more candid with the American public, because m..."

Brian - I understand that folks feel differently - and I think LBJ was in a tough spot - a very tough spot.

Ann wrote: "Kathy,
I only read In Cold Blood much later.

I was very young in 1965 and oblivious to much that was going on. Vietnam was not an issue for me until the late sixties. I was from Siou..."

There is a saying that you realize how much smarter your parents were as you get older.

Here is something to bring back memories for you: (and you grew up just fine) - young people always think they know more than their parents and things are going to be different when they are in charge.

LOL, Bentley. The real eyeopener to evaluating your parents fairly is probably having children yourself. :-)

I was surprised to read about the people who did protest the Johnson administration's Vietnam policy early on - Walter Lippmann, George Ball, Clark Clifford, Frank Church.

Yet Johnson felt that he had no choice.
As he told Lady Bird (p.279):
"...Vietnam is getting worse every day. I have the choice to go in with great casualty lists or to get out with disgrace."

Johnson could never have seriously contemplated a path that would result in "disgrace."

Very true (smile)

Disgrace was never an option for LBJ.

Because of this chapter, I've added a few books on Moynihan to my to-read list. He was my senator for decades, but I had no idea that he started off in the Department of Labor. Since he was a liberal, I'm wondering about his alternative recommendations to the Great Society.

LBJ sort of reminds me of Taft.

Here's how. I am also reading The Bully Pulpit about Teddy Roosevelt and Taft.

Taft was meant to be a judge. It's what he wanted to be all his life; he was good at it. His dream was the Supreme Court. He was pushed to be a politician by his wife.
Doris Kearns Goodwin
LBJ was meant to be a senator. As Robert Caro points out, it was a body of the right size for his skills; yet anonymous enough to hide his defects. As POTUS, he came under a spotlight that he could not stand. He was pushed to run for POTUS by his own demons and insecurities.

by

by Robert A. Caro

I haven't gotten the sense that Lady Bird ever pushed LBJ to do anything. He dragged her along for the ride.

Kressel wrote: "I haven't gotten the sense that Lady Bird ever pushed LBJ to do anything. He dragged her along for the ride."

Right. I said that Taft was pressured by his wife; LBJ was pressured by his own demons.

Ohhh. I see.

Kressel wrote: "I haven't gotten the sense that Lady Bird ever pushed LBJ to do anything. He dragged her along for the ride."


She actually did about Walter Jenkins and did a great job.

Kathy wrote: "(Page 266) "About 70 percent ...think of the book as a reflection on American life, this collision between the desperate, ruthless, wandering, savage part of American life, and the other, which is ..."

The whole fear mentality is still going even stronger today. Interesting to see the media was already propagating it. Today, they have the 24 hour news cycle to do it.

So true, David.

Ann, shared the following quote: "Yet Johnson felt that he had no choice.
As he told Lady Bird (p.279):
"...Vietnam is getting worse every day. I have the choice to go in with great casualty lists or to get out with disgrace."

I understand that we have the advantage of hindsight on many of the issues that are faced by many of the Presidents. We have information that they would have loved to have during their administrations. I think it is interesting that LBJ had these feelings by pulled back on the reigns when it came to waging war against North Vietnam.

Russian ships offloading war supplies in Haiphong harbor; instead of telling the Russians to get them out and publishing photos for the world to see; pilots were ordered not to target the harbor. Where did the anti-aircraft get put? Close to places the North knew were not targeted. Interdiction of the Ho Chi Minh trail went to the DMZ I do not think troops went into the portions of North Vietnam traversed by the supply routes. No large scale assaults into the North.

There were concerns over the war going badly but the politicians were calling the shots not the Joint Chiefs. Maybe deep down LBJ knew that they just were not conducting operations properly. This would have a leader laying awake at night.

With the problems that existed in the South Vietnamese government would it really have been a disgrace if we would never have gone beyond Rolling Thunder and just stopped when the campaign was over? Once the marines waded ashore in 1965 the US was committed beyond simply ceasing operations.

Excellent post Michael.

Bentley wrote: "She actually did about Walter Jenkins and did a great job."

Agreed.

Good point, Michael. So, this is interesting. During the U.S. campaign against Serbia, President Clinton plainly asked Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Hugh Shelton "if you were king for a day, what would you do at this point in this war?"

I suspect if LBJ asked the Joint Chiefs that question, he still would have sent in troops. Anyway, I liked Clinton's directness on this.

Michael wrote: "Ann, shared the following quote: "Yet Johnson felt that he had no choice.
As he told Lady Bird (p.279):
"...Vietnam is getting worse every day. I have the choice to go in with great casualty lists ..."

Very true, Michael.

I remember dinnertime discussions about the civil unrest and the Vietnam war. Dad always wanted us to be aware of what was happening in the world, and being a military family, we were all concerned about whether and when my father would be sent to Vietnam (he was there from '66 through '67). It was a troubling time for America. I didn't realize that Medicare was passed during Johnson's administration. Despite Vietnam, Johnson got a lot accomplished during his administration.

Bryan wrote: "Good point, Michael. So, this is interesting. During the U.S. campaign against Serbia, President Clinton plainly asked Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Hugh Shelton "if you were king for a d..."

Yes that is true Bryan.

Francie wrote: "I remember dinnertime discussions about the civil unrest and the Vietnam war. Dad always wanted us to be aware of what was happening in the world, and being a military family, we were all concerne..."

Francie he did - you must have wondered what folks who were older did for healthcare before Medicare - it must have been very rough.

I am a bit disappointed that there isn't more coverage of the passage of Medicare in this book. It may not be controversial now, but it certainly was in the mid-sixties. My father was a family doctor and I remember him and his doctor friends discussing how horrible this "socialized medicine" was going to be. Of course, they were all members of the American Medical Association which came out against it.

I think that lots of old people just didn't get treatment if they couldn't afford it back then. The cost of office visits and hospitalization was way cheaper, even accounting for the effects of inflation, although there was less that medicine could do for many diseases and cancers. I know my father treated people he didn't collect from, but I don't know how widespread that was.

Later, my father had to admit that Medicare was a good thing. As a beneficiary, I am certainly grateful for it. Today it surprises me that so many people fully support government health care for the aged, but are so radically opposed to it for anyone else.

Ann - a very interesting and important perspective - how things have changed.

I am surprised too Ann - I think healthcare should be something that folks get at all ages including education. We do educate our young but only until they graduate high school. And I see heathcare as being as critical if not more.

Love that link, Bentley. We actually still have a set of "jarts" that we play when the family gets together at the in-laws. No deaths yet.

Bentley wrote: "Ann wrote: "Kathy,
I only read In Cold Blood much later.

I was very young in 1965 and oblivious to much that was going on. Vietnam was not an issue for me until the late sixties. I w..."

Interesting chapter. I knew there were riots in LA but didn't know any details.

We're now seeing that LBJ is unable to deal with foreign issues they way he could handle some things domestically. It's not like he could have the North Vietnamese government over to the ranch to talk.

I was too young to remember the mid-60s but I do remember seeing the news in the late 60s and early 70s and hearing some stuff about the war and asking my parents if there was any way it would come to us. They assured me that no, it wouldn't, so we didn't talk about it much. I had a distant cousin that was killed in the war but I don't remember any of that. I grew up in SW Missouri with a mix race population and was unaware of any racial issues and there were no race riots that I was aware of. However, my Aunt/Uncle/Cousins lived in the Kansas City area and they would come visit and tell some scary stories.

Teri wrote: "Love that link, Bentley. We actually still have a set of "jarts" that we play when the family gets together at the in-laws. No deaths yet.

Bentley wrote: "Ann wrote: "Kathy,
I only read [book:In..."

(smile)

Teri wrote: "Interesting chapter. I knew there were riots in LA but didn't know any details.

We're now seeing that LBJ is unable to deal with foreign issues they way he could handle some things domestically..."

Very nice anecdote Teri - I think each part of the country had different and varied issues

Kathy wrote: "(Page 266) "About 70 percent ...think of the book as a reflection on American life, this collision between the desperate, ruthless, wandering, savage part of American life, and the other, which is ..."

I did read the Capote book in the 60s - forget exactly when - I didn't have a Å·±¦ÓéÀÖ to record it in.

This was a tough decade for Americans and the values they wanted to think were more universally shared. There was not just JFK but also the killings of MLK and RFK on top of Watts and Selma etc etc.

There was Vietnam and the first war in the century where Americans really had to question the morality of our military action. The first one where the enemy was not in uniform at all.

No concrete conclusions just food for thought.

Truman Capote

Ann wrote: "LOL, Bentley. The real eyeopener to evaluating your parents fairly is probably having children yourself. :-)

I was surprised to read about the people who did protest the Johnson administration's ..."

I don't agree that he could not have withdrawn from Vietnam. He could have painted a far different picture than "disgrace" especially with Valenti and Moyers to help promote that position.

That he seemed to send hundreds of thousands of American young men there to hurt a lot of folks without a vision that it could work was wrong. Did I mention before, I have thought it, he didn't have draftable sons.

He did some great things.. Vietnam was a total failure - worse than Kennedy's Bay of Pigs etc.

There were to me, who lived through this time as a young adult, lots of interesting things.

Pg 274 + others - I never realized how much Jackie Kennedy focused on crafting and promoting the image she wanted for JFK.

Pg 275 para 2 & 3 -so does our author Mr. Darman take a "press" position regarding JFK's friendliness to the press. That Kennedy had "congenital confidence" in the press.
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Interesting note - LBJ was only loyal to those "with 110% loyalty to him"

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Is the author sainting Lady Bird - pg 278 para 2 she had.."summoned the strength to cut thru her husband's warring fears and fantasies"
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pg 279para 3 about Vietnam LBJ said "I don't have a parachute" but what he really didn's have - as referenced above - was a draftable son.

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pg 280 Para 2 - I did not know that Jerry Brown was out of the country during Watts - I think he might have helped as John Lindsay did in New York during our racial troubles here in that era.
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pg 281 - interesting that LBJ played ostrich during Watts.

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much of what is here is an exposure not only of what was but also a bit what might have been - maybe this is an interesting view of a press person as opposed to a history person.
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Not to undervalue his domestic accomplishments the Vietnam that he let happen on his watch was such a major foul up. It may eventually be compared to the WMD foundation for Geo. W to go into Iraq. - LBJ pushed by circumstances and GW pushed by some force who knows what (Dick Cheney?)

PS everyone - I leave soon for a vacation so will have to catch up on this book when I return - I am not carrying but two "real books". The rest are Kindle books. Thanks to all for your participation.

Vince wrote: "Kathy wrote: "(Page 266) "About 70 percent ...think of the book as a reflection on American life, this collision between the desperate, ruthless, wandering, savage part of American life, and the ot..."

It was not a good time - Vince you have all three parts of the citation - you might want to try to type the word by after the book cover and before the author's photo.

Vince wrote: "Ann wrote: "LOL, Bentley. The real eyeopener to evaluating your parents fairly is probably having children yourself. :-)

I was surprised to read about the people who did protest the Johnson admin..."

Interesting about the fact that he did not have draft able sons so it was some other family's loss.

Vince wrote: "There were to me, who lived through this time as a young adult, lots of interesting things.

Pg 274 + others - I never realized how much Jackie Kennedy focused on crafting and promoting the image ..."

Enjoy.

Vince,

Good point about Johnson not having a draft eligible son. The more war effects you or your family personally, the more realistic view you have of the sacrifices involved.

There were lots of middle class and upper class families whose sons avoided the draft during the Vietnam War. There were many student deferments given to allow men to attend college(Biden)and family deferments given to married men with children (Cheney). And if your parents were influential, you just might get a good place in the National Guard (George W. Bush).

I'm not criticizing those who took advantage of these loop holes (I would have done the same). However, it often gives them a different perspective on war.

Incidentally, both of Johnson's sons-in-law, Charles Robb and Patrick Nugent, served in Vietnam.

The Robb and Nugent comment at the end was a point well taken.

Ann wrote: "Vince,

Good point about Johnson not having a draft eligible son. The more war effects you or your family personally, the more realistic view you have of the sacrifices involved.

There were lots o..."

Thanks

Luci married in August 66 to a reservist and Lynda in 67 to a Marine.

I would want to look at a calendar but I think the big commitments were made before those marriages.

But even so he didn't have boys that could have been drafted against their will. and his wife would never face losing a son -

Just an observation but he must have had tough times later while they served there.