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Here's another excerpt from ANTIGRAVITY PROPULSION: Human or Alien Technologies?:

Could there be other theories, not covered (so far) in this book, that more aptly match the actual reality of the UFO phenomenon? Even something besides the obvious possibilities of human or alien, or human AND alien, technologies?

Furthermore, could the truth be something stranger, or more malicious, or even more out there than anything most researchers would ever stop to consider let alone write about?

In a 2014 interview with host Sean Stone on the alternative views talk show Buzzsaw, one of the world’s leading UFO investigators, Richard Dolan, told how Jimmy Carter reacted when informed of the truth about UFO’s upon becoming US President.

Dolan said, “This is a story that I was told, but again I credit this source, of when Jimmy Carter, wanted to get a briefing. Now Jimmy Carter becomes President in January 1977, a long time ago now. He had talked as a candidate about having seen a UFO.

“Jimmy Carter comes into the White House in 1977 and he seems to have gotten a briefing on this subject in June of that year. Now according to the gentleman I had a detailed conversation with about this, and it was not known to this gentleman what was said to Carter, but it was known to him that at the end of the briefing Carter was deeply upset…And that he was seen literally at his desk, elbows on the desk, head in his hands, and apparently sobbing.�

So the question that must be asked would be what sort of truths about UFO’s would make an intelligent, worldly President break down and cry in that fashion? And whatever those truths are, does their shocking nature explain why they are being withheld from the public?

In the same interview, Dolan also brought up a fascinating idea that had occurred to him after decades of researching UFO reports all over the world: that we may be looking at things all wrong by blaming governments and their intelligence agencies for covering up antigravity technologies.

“The way I think these things work,� Dolan told Sean Stone, “is that the secret becomes privatized increasingly. And again I would emphasize for people to look at the general structure of the US military and to see how that has become privatized. And how secrecy itself has become privatized.

“In other words,� Dolan continued, “if we were working in a black budget program, what are called special access programs, and let’s say I was a Defense Department person and you were a person at Lockheed Martin ... You’d be the contractor and chances are you would have more power in the program than I would. The private contractors, as far as we can determine on these black budget programs, have the upper hand and they really run the show. The secret in other words is not so much classified as it is proprietary � And that appears to me to be how the UFO secret has gone.�

And finally, what if UFO’s are not physical objects like planes or space rockets, but are instead some kind of quantum physics-esque, interdimensional or multidimensional, time traveling, teleporting objects?

The interdimensional hypothesis, which is completely different to the extraterrestrial hypothesis, has been written about by Ufologists such as Jacques Vallée and others. It basically suggests that UFO sightings and interrelated events such as alien abductions, crop circles and cattle mutilations, all involve visitations from other dimensions, or planes of existence, or parallel worlds, that exist simultaneously to our reality.

While this idea may sound ridiculous, it probably cannot be easily dismissed as there have been numerous declassified documents that seem to indicate the militaries of the world have no idea what UFO’s actually are.

If the interdimensional theory is true, then perhaps antigravity flying machines have the ability to bend space and time via black holes, worm holes or whatever. And maybe they also have the ability to just appear in our world from out of nowhere�

Hi. I agree with James in that the private contractors may have the technical detail upper hand (though governments recruit scientists to their liking). The rest is also just my opinion on this subject:
If the UFO facts are, or would be, hiding in a private sector, this begs the question, 'how did those people and/or companies acquire that information?' Many legal forms are signed to inhibit or control information-bleed from one funded program to another funded program. To your point, if I was a person at Lockheed Martin and you were my government defense funder - if I had a great idea, I would probably need to get it funded. Of course, I might try to outsmart the government with a 'better' system (mischievous or not) and aim to keep everything proprietary; however, who's to stop the government from paying or coercing anyone involved to put a classified package, or piece of equipment, in or on the system? I hope i'm making sense, that's a 50-50 question i admit.
To the other point about UFO's not being physical....the movie 'Hearts in Atlantis' comes to mind. And then my thoughts wander to the Vatican stellar observatory suggested to be involved with a portal.
I believe in a interdimensional hypothesis and in a extraterrestrial hypothesis; i believe they cross each others paths (pun intended).
I need to read the books that you are reading.
Lynn

Lynn wrote: "Hi. I agree with James in that the private contractors may have the technical detail upper hand (though governments recruit scientists to their liking). The rest is also just my opinion on this s..."

I saw Hearts in Atlantis but don't remember any scene alluding to ETs. Or do you just mean in a general sense of how Anthony Hopkins' character could see into other dimensions?

I wonder if any of you have read 'In League with a UFO' by Lou Baldin. He is 'a bit' of a contactee... now I wont vouch for accuracy here but it is an interesting read... here is a partial description of the ship (the Roswell 'crash')...

"The interior of the craft was much larger than its physical exterior suggested. No one is sure that
all the rooms and compartments on the ship have been discovered. Everyone who entered it came
out with a different numbers even the same person comes out with a different count each time
they leave the craft. Another problem they faced was leaving the ship with intelligible notes.
Everything they wrote down ended up being a maze of half-written words and sentences that
were void of any meaning once they exited the ship. The scientists attempted to take pictures of
the instruments and other interior rooms of the ship, but were unsuccessful. When the film was
developed, it was as if it had been exposed to light. So they tried different systems of shielding
the camera from the unknown radiation. They enclosed the camera in various alloys, plastics and
exotic cutting-edge ceramics in vain attempts to insulate the film, nothing worked..."

I'm not a Roswell believer. My thoughts about contactees are complex and I'm not ready to try to sum them up here.

I will say that, even so, the quote about the craft and the inability to film it or even count the rooms seems consistent with the weirdness of these paranormal phenomena. It's the trickster element that seems to be a common thread.

This is offered only as a question. I have not studied the events. Any opinions?

"Mysterious Disappearances:

On Sunday night's program, George Knapp was joined for the full program by researcher and author David Paulides , who shared even more bizarre stories of missing persons in national parks and forests throughout the United States. He expressed concern that, since his research began, reports of mysterious disappearances have seemingly increased. "The numbers have incrementally gone up in the last three years," Paulides revealed, noting that he has now amassed a stunning 1,400 cases. He dismissed the idea that this increase is merely because of additional attention focused on the phenomenon, since archival searches for such events over the last ten years has borne out the troubling trend. "It doesn't seem to make sense, what's happening," he mused about the puzzling rise in disappearances.

Over the course of the evening, Paulides shared a number of baffling disappearance cases that he has amassed via his research. One such story centered around a British man named Jonathan Myles Robinson who was vacationing in a small, isolated community in Switzerland which is only accessible by a railway system that shuts down at midnight. Paulides recounted how Robinson seemingly vanished at around 3 AM while walking to his hotel one night. Despite an exhaustive search of the area, the man's dead body was not discovered until five days later when searchers spied it at the bottom of a cliff in a nearby town. Eerily, cell phone records indicate that Robinson likely fell to his death shortly after 3 AM on the night he disappeared and, Paulides stressed, "there was no way" he could have traveled the distance to where his body was found.

"This is a really, really unusual case," he said about the 2014 disappearance of a woman named Karen Sykes. An avid hiker on Mt. Rainier, Sykes had been dubbed the "guru of the trails" by local newspapers and even wrote a book on hiking safety. On a seemingly routine hike with a friend, she opted to advance a bit further up the trail after her companion became tired and decided to take a rest. Sykes never returned and her body was discovered three days later in a location described by the Parks service as "difficult to access and not commonly traveled" which would have required her to climb 6,200 feet and then halfway down into an adjacent valley. Her death mystified Sykes' friends, who insisted that she was "the last person in the world that would have ever gotten lost on Rainier."

Maybe the Vimanas of Ancient India fit into this category...

In the Vedic literature of India, there are many descriptions of flying machines that are generally called vimanas. These fall into two categories: (l) manmade craft that resemble airplanes and fly with the aid of birdlike wings, and (2) unstreamlined structures that fly in a mysterious manner and are generally not made by human beings. The machines in category (l) are described mainly in medieval, secular Sanskrit works dealing with architecture, automata, military siege engines, and other mechanical contrivances. Those in category (2) are described in
ancient works such as the Rg Veda, the Maha-bha-rata, the Ramayana, and the Pura-nas, and they have many features reminiscent of UFOs.

They say proof of aliens will be a culture shock and a jolt for humanity to be overwhelmed. I say that will be a yawn one month thereafter. But this will be an even greater shock:

Proof we are alone.

Any thoughts?

I don't think we're alone in the universe, or even in this galaxy. The problem is that space is so mind-bogglingly huge that traveling between even close stars is a major engineering problem. If another civilization wanted to study the earth, an uncrewed probe would be a more sensible solution. Even that would have it's challenges.

If we could somehow know that we really were alone, that would probably reinforce certain beliefs of a religious nature. I, however, would be really surprised and disappointed.

Jim wrote: "I don't think we're alone in the universe, or even in this galaxy. The problem is that space is so mind-bogglingly huge that traveling between even close stars is a major engineering problem. If ..."

Jim - I suspect you are applying your understanding of the laws of gravity etc. in this case...

While it sounds preposterous to imagine alone in such a vast universe, earth being relatively new - there are yet logical premises to consider we just might be. Consider these factors.

1. The impossible space-time distances is not a deficiency for earthlings; rather it is one for the other potential beings who are older, thus more advanced. It is an anomaly they have not indicated any credible presence or imprints for some 14 Billion years in the known universe. This says we are alone.

2. The unknown is more like the known than not so. This says we are alone.

3. The evolution theory also negates life: harsh conditions do not apply if it is limited only for earth. We have life even in the core of volcanoes and the deepest sea beds: why no life on the other planets of this solar system? This says we are alone.

4. The math says we are alone. The probability, not the possibility, rules. We have physical surveys of the known universe, including imaging, radiation, messaging, sonar, light and gas recordings. Nil life.

5. Hubble by default says no life: if the space is expanding, in compounding velocity, then the past planets could have sent trajectories which could be identified. Alone result.

6. Light - the fastest force, does not reveal any life imprints from other unknown sectors of the universe.

7. Comets & Asteroids, from other galaxies also do not have life imprints.

8. Theologically, no scripture speaks of life outside earth: here, the notion of Adam & Eve is also set in another non-physical realm, from which they were cast down and barred entry. Angels, spiritual beings also do not qualify as these are again non-corporeal; it asks whether 'the heavens' [Gen. 1:1] refers to a non-corporeal realm, or both physical & spiritual.

Thereby it is incumbent to equally examine that no life exists. Here, alleged UFO & alien sightings cannot be offered as evidences. The opening verse of genesis is based on a finite universe, whereby once the universe and all its components never existed; namely, if life was created in other sectors as with earth - we are not told so, which inclines with the negative understanding.

The most intriguing issue is, what will it mean if we are alone?

Joseph wrote: "8. Theologically, no scripture speaks of life outside earth: here, the notion of Adam & Eve is also set in another non-physical realm, from which they were cast down and barred entry. Angels, spiritual beings also do not qualify as these are again non-corporeal; it asks whether 'the heavens' [Gen. 1:1] refers to a non-corporeal realM, or both physical & spiritual...."

Again, Joseph, I would argue you're interpreting Biblical texts in a certain way. As per your finite universe theory. Again, all a very valid interpretation that cannot be disproven. I've read others that say the Bible disproves the Big Bang (finite universe) theory which is obviously the antithesis of your interpretation of scripture.

Likewise, many researchers have said there are numerous alien references throughout the Bible (Old and New Testaments). Again, yet another interpretation.

These ancient scriptures are unfortunately so vaguely written and ambiguous they can almost be interpreted any old way we see fit.
That problem is compounded when we factor in most of the books in the Old Testament (e.g. Genesis) are agreed by most historians not to be originals but to be amalgamations of various (older) Pagan books and are therefore contradictory...some passages relate to one Pagan book and other passages were lifted/inspired by another Pagan book.

The problem gets further compounded when we try to equate modern science with old books written by men who probably had very little scientific understanding (or scientific language) of the world and the universe...

Don't get me wrong, I refer to the Bible regularly and think it holds many secrets but I just don't think we can get all our answers from these old books...

Joseph wrote: "Thereby it is incumbent to equally examine that no life exists. Here, alleged UFO & alien sightings cannot be offered as evidences. The opening verse of genesis is based on a finite universe, whereby once the universe and all its components never existed; namely, if life was created in other secters as with earth - we are not so, which inclines with the negative understanding.

The most intriguing issue is, what will it mean if we are alone?
..."

I fully agree we need to examine this possibility also - if you're interested in discussing these theories you'll see I've posted other topics in this UFO section which talks about the idea that UFO tech and all such sightings could be all man-made (classified military tech) and there never was any ETs.

Everything's being put on the table, brother, and with your help no stone will be left unturned. :)
My motto is neither believe (or disbelieve) anything until absolute proof is in. Until then, we really cannot discount any theory...

James Morcan wrote: "Joseph wrote: "8. Theologically, no scripture speaks of life outside earth: here, the notion of Adam & Eve is also set in another non-physical realm, from which they were cast down and barred entry..."

Rather than when and by whom was it written, more important is what is written. BTW, we have no proof of the Hebrew Bible written at different times: if it was written 500 or 1,000 year later, it appears a feat we could not perform today even with super PCs. There are millions of states, numbers, dates & names, genealogies, ancient nations & routes, strewn through its verses of a 3,000 year period w/o a single error. Try to list all the names and DOD's of your ancestors just 250 years ago? In any case, such a feat makes those writers super human.

The scholars have mis-repped the texts.They failed to align it with the opening preamble that once nothing but a God existed, which, according to the texts, rejects other forces & finite universes.

The ancient writings are not vague. Rather they speak in the vocab of the people addressed in its stated time. This also affirms an authentic contemporaneous writing. If one examines the given diets of ancient Egypt in Genesis, it is w/o error: no tomatoes or camels!

There is more indicators the uni is finite than infinite. Of note, it is the first recording of such a consideration. The same applies with the introduction of species and medicine. These are reasons I do find the Hebrew Bible as mysterious - that is was not spoken by any other peoples and emerged suddenly in a super advanced literary measure, and saying many new things that are still debate subjects, says this was not a borrowed writ and its origins unknown.

Joseph wrote: "James Morcan wrote: "Joseph wrote: "8. Theologically, no scripture speaks of life outside earth: here, the notion of Adam & Eve is also set in another non-physical realm, from which they were cast ..."

w/o a single error Joseph? That's a mighty big call.

Lance Morcan wrote: "Joseph wrote: "James Morcan wrote: "Joseph wrote: "8. Theologically, no scripture speaks of life outside earth: here, the notion of Adam & Eve is also set in another non-physical realm, from which ..."

I'm amazed at the fractional sub-totals and totals of the world's first scientifically accounted census in the book of Exodus, by tribe, gender and age. The 3M figure equates with this verse: "And he said unto his people: 'Behold, the people of the children of Israel are too many and too mighty for us"

That there is no error is absolutely astounding. More, that the calendar aligns with the oldest name and that we have no recorded
history per se before some 6,000 years. Pls explain it to me?

One reason for no error possible is that the Heb alphabets also act as numbers. This means a book can be accounted of its summary total and spit out an error. There is also a law in this writing 'Not to add or subtract'.

Lance Morcan wrote: "w/o a single error Joseph? That's a mighty big call. ..."

I agree that's a big call also, but am not going to say it's wrong because again it all comes down to how we interpret these texts and nothing can really be proven or disproven absolutely...It's like these people you see on TV saying every other year "we have found Noah's Ark" and this proves the Bible... And possibly faith issues come into the equation as well.

Regardless, I guess my concern here is that not everybody in this group is coming from biblical scriptures angle. And so if every thread in the group eventually becomes about that, and not everyone agrees with the interpretation that the Christian or Hebrew Bible are factual then it could create a lot of unnecessary tangents on various threads. For example, this thread is about UFOs...

Again, I'm also very fascinated in Bible history and the secrets of these ancient texts, and I can also see how the Bible can be related to almost any topic (for example I think there's a good case for saying some of the beings in the Bible may have been ETs)...
However, maybe these scripture arguments are undebatable as everything seems to come back to it still being interpretation and no less a theory than saying ETs are visiting earth. With the Hebrew Bible, for example, I've seen plenty of renowned Jewish scholars violently disagreeing over various details - some saying the Hebrew Bible is 100% literal others saying it's symbolic stories others saying it's a synthesis of both.

"it all comes down to how we interpret these texts"\

How would you interpret the opening preamble of Genesis:

"In the beginning God"?

And

"In the beginning God created..."?

Thread carefully now - there is cadence here.

Joseph wrote: ""it all comes down to how we interpret these texts"\

How would you interpret the opening preamble of Genesis:

"In the beginning God"?

And

"In the beginning God created..."?

Thread carefully no..."

Hi Joseph - I'm seriously not commenting on your faith or Judaism and hope I'm not offending with any of my comments. It just seems to me to be a straight practical thing here in that not everyone is Christian or Jewish or even religious and it makes more sense to me to look for more universal (or scientific) ways to prove things.
Again, I hope I'm not offending in anything I've said.
It's like if someone was quoting the Q'aran (I forget how to spell that word) and claiming proof if most of us are not Muslim...It'd be a bit hard to relate to for most of us, I suspect, even though I'm sure there are many facts (scientific and historical) in that particular religious text as well.

re your question about the first words of Gensis: I already replied to this question in the Big Bang thread but not sure if you saw it so will paste my reply here again:

Allow me to play the Devil's Advocate, for the sake of a fair argument, and present one of possibly a million other interpretations you could make from the cryptic and vaguely written Genesis:

"In the beginning" could be metaphorical because God (possibly) exists beyond space and more importantly beyond time. Time is an illusion of man in this counter-interpretation. I believe this is hinted at in Peter 3:8 where he writes: "But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." That Biblical passage could imply in the Lord's realm there is no time. Interestingly, I believe the ancient Hindu texts talk about time being illusory and part of Maya (correct me if I'm wrong Hindu members). I think Quantum physics has also put forward similar theories of time possibly not existing at the deepest levels.

The fifth word of Genesis "create" could also be taken literally (as you have) or more symbolically as I choose to view it. Creation wouldn't be necessary if God is beyond time and the Universe always existed. If say for the sake of argument there is no time in the grand scheme of things (which cannot be proven or disproven at this stage) then nothing could ever begin or end.

So instead of viewing this linearly, and saying in the beginning (before the universe was made) there was only God and no universe, what it could have meant is that God was the root of everything else. Maybe it meant there could be no Universe without God as God is the root or true essence of the Universe. But of course, the Bible was written by mortal men (with limited perspectives) and not God and those men could probably not conceive of there being a dimension where there is no time.

Now I am not saying my interpretation is right and that yours is wrong. I just wanted to provide another example of an interpretation one could easily make which cannot be refuted without knowing what or who God is (or who G-d is) and also what the writers of Genesis (and the earlier Pagan texts that it appears to have been lifted from) were thinking at the time.

I personally think both science (with the Big Bang Theory) and religion (with ambiguously written creation stories) require you to make a leap of "blind faith" between their theories and precisely what did happen to form the universe (if there even was a beginning). There are massive gaps between theory and absolute proof to me and for anyone to say ALL the answers can be provided by either scientific theories or religious texts (or even a combination of both) seems naïve.

But like I say, just my opinions on the matter and keep in mind I'm also the guy that makes dinosaur jokes so what do I know? :)

Reminding everybody the above is not necessarily my personal interpretation of the opening words of Genesis, but is simply some ideas to illustrate how various interpretations can be made over even the most simple text.

Now...Can we get back to other theories re UFOs or should this entire thread be transferred to the Biblical section??? :)

UFO now means UnFound Object

UnFound Object? Ha!
Maybe that explains then why the intel agencies have about 100 million classified files on them, then...they don't want Russia or China to know just how many objects have gone missing ;)

Lance Morcan wrote: Jim - I suspect you are applying your understanding of the laws of gravity etc. in this case...

I'll be the first to admit that there is a lot we don't know about physics. We don't even know what gravity is. Our measurements of so-called constants like the speed of light and the gravitational constant change over time.

That said, everything we've learned since Newton has failed to overturn the notions about mass, force, acceleration, etc. Therefore, moving large amounts of mass great distances will require a large energy input for acceleration and deceleration.

I've read a lot of science fiction and admit it's possible that some future discoveries might sidestep those problems. If I had to bet, however, my money would be on Newton.

Keeping to the topic:


UFO Update:

First hour guest, documentary filmmaker James Fox shared an update on UFOs. He is continuing to work on his upcoming documentary/feature 701 with Tracey Torme, which explores the origins of the UFO phenomenon and the government suppression of evidence. 701 refers to the number of UFO cases that remained unexplained as part of the US Air Force's Project Blue Book. Fox has recently been studying materials at the National Archives regarding the 1964 Socorro, NM UFO case in which police officer Lonnie Zamora approached a shiny egg-shaped object with occupants, after it landed. Fox will screen his documentary I Know What I Saw and participate in a panel at the Sonoma International Film Festival this weekend. More info: ufosRreal.com

I have seen an explanation that Socorro was a college hoax. Mr. Zamora refuted that late in his life.

David wrote: "Keeping to the topic:


UFO Update:

First hour guest, documentary filmmaker James Fox shared an update on UFOs. He is continuing to work on his upcoming documentary/feature 701 with Tracey Tor..."

That sounds like it'll be a documentary worth having a look at.
Am not aware of the 1964 Socorro, NM UFO case.

Very interesting and worth checking out.

Here is one link

James Morcan wrote: "Maybe the Vimanas of Ancient India fit into this category...

In the Vedic literature of India, there are many descriptions of flying machines that are generally called vimanas. These fall into two..."

Talks Of 7000-Year-Old Spaceships Jolt 102nd Indian Science Congress --

With Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi in attendance (as seen in the picture), and various other prestigious scientists from all over the world, the Indian Science Congress is probably the last place you would expect a presentation regarding ancient flying machines that could traverse the Solar System. For the first time in the history of the congress, a presentation was given outlining the depiction of these ancient flying ‘space ships.�

Read full article here:

i think this article dovetails in nicely with this discussion:

Disclosure not just about UFOs � other mysteries connected --


By Steve Hammons

When we read and hear about “UFO disclosure� it may seem that this is the main unknown of our era. It may be. Yet, there are other scientific mysteries that are also very interesting and may be equally important.

In fact, these other anomalous phenomena could be related to the UFO situation.

For example, the idea of multiple dimensions is gaining credibility among physicists and mathematicians. A concept called the “Calabi-Yau space� proposes that the universe could be structured like a crumpled up or folded up piece of paper. This would create dimensions that may be far away or very near.

Our ideas about the afterlife or Heaven could fit in nicely with this concept.

Another mystery is extrasensory perception (ESP), sometimes called anomalous cognition. It has been adequately proven by the U.S. defense and intelligence activity referred to as Project STAR GATE that this human “sixth sense� is real and capable of fascinating perception and awareness. Although the defense and intelligence personnel involved named their specific technique and protocol “remote viewing,� it appears to be a very natural ability and is within all of us.

SYNERGY OF RESEARCH, DISCOVERY

And then there are space-time phenomena that seem to connect events, people, times and places in ways that don’t always make logical sense to us. This “synchronicity� can be puzzling. Physicists use the term “non-locality,� meaning things can be connected in ways that do not seem obvious. But do these strange phenomena have special meaning?

New understanding of space and time could provide more insight into UFOs, multiple dimensions, ESP and other challenging topics.

In addition, the mysteries of, and in our DNA continue to be a source of discovery too. What may be deep down within the genetic core of all of us? Ancient ancestors� memories? A master plan for the development of the human race? Surprising origins and histories of the human race? Or simply a fluid and responsive system or mechanism of adjustment to our environment over the centuries?

Are there methods and tools that could be keys to unlock the information and experiences within our DNA? Again, these kinds of possibilities might be connected in some way to other leading-edge or forward-leaning research.

Being human might get more interesting.

UFOs could seem boring in comparison to some of these other interesting topics. But, actually, there may be a synergy in the significant connections among all of these subjects, as well as other mysterious goings-on around us and within us.

The whole may be greater than the sum of the parts.

OPEN SOURCE INTELLIGENCE

Of course, “disclosure� about these kinds of subjects has different characteristics.

In the case of UFOs, there seems to have been defense and intelligence security that sought to limit public information about the issue for various reasons.

This was previously also the case in Project STAR GATE. For more than two decades, the research and operations were top secret. But now, much of the information is public. However, many details of actual defense and intelligence operations using remote viewing remain classified.

Topics like multiple dimensions, DNA research (including more unconventional research), time-space theories, synchronicity and similar issues can be found in textbooks, writings and various media platforms about physics, spirituality, biology, philosophy, psychology and other fields.

There is a huge amount of “open source intelligence (OSINT)� on these areas. Disclosure in these cases is not so much about some powers-that-be releasing secret files, but more about our own curiosity and willingness to look into the available information.

We can empower ourselves by learning more about such fascinating concepts. In fact, some of these subjects could help us in our daily lives and even be key to survival in certain ways. By taking responsibility to open our minds and explore these advanced, and probably fundamental and even ancient subjects, we may be able to create important disclosure on our own.

I suspect that we are currently incapable of truly understanding whatever is behind paranormal experiences. Even if we can break out of the Aristotelian logic we've been conditioned to have, we still may not have the concepts to adequately understand.

Jim wrote: "I suspect that we are currently incapable of truly understanding whatever is behind paranormal experiences. Even if we can break out of the Aristotelian logic we've been conditioned to have, we st..."

I believe just seriously practicing meditation gives one an understanding. Maybe only a blip in our sub-conscious but something to feel the power out there.

I have to agree with Jim on this one. We are not wired to understand all that there is.

David wrote: "I have to agree with Jim on this one. We are not wired to understand all that there is."

Ditto.

Maybe not, but it is always exciting to explore new concepts and scientists should be the most excited of all, if they opened their minds to a new direction.

I want to be clear that I'm not saying we shouldn't try to understand. I just think that we need to evolve a lot more to truly understand. I don't know what form that evolution needs to take. Colonizing space might be the right step because we would have to think more in three dimensions rather than just two most of the time. Spiritual development will probably play a role as well.

I don't necessarily agree that understanding of a new reality requires a spiritual bent. I believe we hope that is the case, but it may be a much harsher existence. Hell, maybe H. P. Lovecraft got it right!

Lovecraft's Old Ones would probably be from another brane in the multiverse. They didn't have M-Theory back then so he seems to have anticipated it.

My thinking is more mystical but only because I don't have the right concepts to tie my ideas to anything scientific. The best I can do is point to the idea of an astral plane from western occultism. I think that's the closest description of where aliens, bigfoot, ghosts, djinn, demons, etc. come from. There's a strong psychological component to the paranormal and yet it can leave physical traces: bigfoot footprints, burn marks from saucers, maybe even alien implants if those actually happened.

I've been trying to find the right concepts for all of that and I'm not going to overlook the spiritual just because it isn't scientific. If I can ever get a handle on the paranormal, then I might be able to think about testable hypotheses.

Well, a lot of people believe ETs are interdimensional beings

Jim, wasn't saying I don't think spiritual is not important, and I am leaning to paranormal than extraterrestrial.

That is why we keep looking

I guess I see the two as connected. I've come to the conclusion that any explanation that accounts for all the facts is going to go to some very weird places. If there were a simple explanation, we would have found it by now.

I'm definitely willing to consider other hypotheses. Have you guys heard the ant-men hypothesis? From Nick Redfern:

I am familiar with Nick and I think he has some very interesting theories. Also familiar with Hopi Indians but I did not see this page. Thanks for the link Jim.

Great read. James, make sure you check it out.

David wrote: "Great read. James, make sure you check it out."

Have read a few of Nick Redfern's titles and like his books as he's basically presenting all possible scenarios for the UFO phenomenon without buying in to any one angle. Body Snatchers in the Desert: The Horrible Truth at the Heart of the Roswell Story was a good book I thought.

Anyway, have just uploaded this video: US Govt experiments on the paranormal, NASA conspiracies, UFOs (interview with author Nick Redfern) /videos/8317...

Following on from ant people comments, The Cryptoterrestrials by Mac Tonnies is a good starting place perhaps.

I'm familiar with the ideas but haven't actually gotten around to reading Body Snatchers. I really liked Redfern's Final Events.

For those interesting in considering alternative explanations for UFOs/ETs, Jacques Vallée is a mine of information and one of the experts in UFO counter theories.

Here's the synopsis for his book Messengers of Deception: UFO Contacts and Cults:

Too many cases of "accidental" alien contact...UFO cults praying to the skies...secret "psychotronic" weapons for bending the human mind. The evidence Jacques Vallee reveals, after many years of scientific investigation, adds up to something more menacing than monsters from outer space. Messengers of Deception documents the growing effect of UFO contact claims on our lives & of the belief systems prevalent in our society. It explores the hidden realities of the cults, the contactees, the murky political intrigues & the motivations of the investigators.
"As suspenseful as a Hitchcock Thriller, brilliantly argued...a smashing achievement."--Robert Anton Wilson

Jacques is a pioneer.

David wrote: "Jacques is a pioneer."

Perhaps to fully understand the UFO phenomenon, David, one must approach it from a variety of different angles. Study such diverse topics as suppressed military tech, alien encounters, Quantum Physics and the paranormal...to name but a few!

I have read declassified memos of flying saucer reports within the military which seems to indicate the military don't quite know what they are dealing with either...

with absolutely no inside knowledge, other than experience of working with the military, confused and bewildered is certainly not a stretch of the imagination.