English 2341 Spring 2015 Class discussion

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Macbeth
The Duality of Human Nature
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Macbeth: Reading #1
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Feb 04, 2015 04:20AM
The witches chant, “Fair is foul and foul is fair.� Explain what this means. What do you think is the implication of these lines and that they are spoken over and over?
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The repetition of those lines may imply that these lines are blurred multiple times, which culminates in murder. Repeatedly we see Macbeth internally struggle with carrying out the assassination. “First, as I am his kinsmen and his subject, Strong both against the deed� shows the inner turmoil he felt prior to the assassination. However, his next statement shows he is already committed to a certain path: “I have no spur to prick the sides of my intent, but only vaulting ambition�. Later he seems to have changed his mind by reminding Lady Macbeth that: “He hath honored me of late, and I have bought Golden opinions from all sorts of people�. With ambition in mind, she continues to drive him to carry out the assassination by calling him a “coward�. She tells him that completing this task will make him more of a man. Sometimes the lines become so blurred, we can no longer identify good or bad, black or white, but instead see everything as middle ground and gray area.

Macbeth recognizing that the witches are evil by default; he enjoys the beautiful predictions that Macbeth is not sure if to believe, but surely he enjoys those visions, "Stay, you imperfect speakers, tell me more. By Sinel’s death I know I am thane of Glamis. But how of Cawdor?" Therefore, corrupting the calm and "fair" ambitions of Macbeth, he begins to deduce if he could become king through force, making Macbeth to behave in a "foul" way, indicating that human duality is easier to be shown when ambitions are on the table.
angel wrote: "Everything is fine, everyone likes their positions and titles until the witches appear. The Witches offering temptation, chant and chant, "Fair is foul and foul is fair." Mocking the destiny of Mac..."
"when ambitions are on the table" makes me think more of "when options are on the table". When we are presented choices, we often see the duality of our inner selves, and isn't this the great truth since the beginning of time (i.e. the garden of Eden, Genesis Chapter 3).
Thank you for sharing this insight.
"when ambitions are on the table" makes me think more of "when options are on the table". When we are presented choices, we often see the duality of our inner selves, and isn't this the great truth since the beginning of time (i.e. the garden of Eden, Genesis Chapter 3).
Thank you for sharing this insight.
Lindsay wrote: "It seems this may be an indication of blurring the lines between good and bad. Sometimes individuals can be so focused on reaching a goal, they might not stop to consider whether the end justifies ..."
YES! Macbeth is often presented options that appeal to his ambition.
YES! Macbeth is often presented options that appeal to his ambition.

I will flag your post because your analogy is better than mine, and I don't want to admit it :C.


In the play of Macbeth the witches repeat fair is foul and foul is fair, and I think this means that there is two sides to every choice you make. You can choose the good side or the bad side. In this story Macbeth has options to choose from and its up to him to see what he makes of it. Like when Macbeth says "I am settled, and bend up each corporal agent to this terrible feat." Macbeth has decided to go on with his foul plan to get what he wants. This is just one of many options Macbeth gets through out the play. What does fair is foul and foul is fair mean it could have meant that it was a foreshadow for the witches to give Macbeth options that will show the duality inside him.


“Fair is foul and foul is fair.� telling Macbeth that whatever is good there is also bad and with that comes consequences. I think the witches reply this because they are supernatural and know that with good comes evil. Second Witch: When the hurlyburly’s done, when the battle’s lost and won. Duncan the prior king honors Macbeth but Macbeth kills him for his own ambitions. Lady Macbeth encourages Macbeth to kill Duncan when he is asleep. She tells him to be a man and kill him. That is what they want so he can become king and have everything he wants. The murder is good as done and there is no turning back.


"Fair is foul, and foul is fair", what I take from this line which the witches pronounce is that the good is bad and the bad is good, anything goes. I believe that humanity has different views of life which are not the same if compared to our own. We may not agree with someone's actions and be quick to judge them to be wrong or bad but in their eyes and within their own person they are right.
For example, in this first part of the play Macbeth is presented as brave, honorable and noble, "What he hath lost honorable Macbeth hath won". Yet Macbeth is not content, "So foul and fair a day I have not seen". This proves unsatisfaction of Macbeth and wanting more. When the witches present themselves, Macbeth uses them a his excuse to turn hi foul into fair to become king an gain satisfaction.

"Fair is foul and foul is fair� is a statement that may be described as self-contradictory (paradox) because basically they are saying that what is good for them is bad and the bad is good, which results contradicting themselves. However, this statement is just the witches� opinion. The dialogue of these three witches is rhythmic because they combine words such as heath and Macbeth or fair and air that actually captured my attention and made me laugh.
I think that the repetition of those lines may imply the ambition of Macbeth to be a king. The predictions from the witches fed Macbeth’s mind. For example, he says: “I have no spur to prick the sides of my intent, but only vaulting ambition�. Therefore, this line shows how strong his ambition is. I think that sometimes we do good things that seem bad things and vice versa, but everything has a cause and effect. This is a good representation of duality because we can see the light part and dark part of it.

“Fair is foul and foul is fair.� This chant reminded of the old saying, “All’s fair in love and war.�
Love being something pure and filled with ‘goodness� vs. war which is suppose to be ‘bad� and offers death, yet we say it’s fair to do absolutely ANYTHING in these two scenarios.
It may seem that it represents the dual characteristic of good AND evil in mankind’s nature. When given options or opportunities, even those that might lead to a positive outcome, we may be so dedicated to the cause or end result that we may implicate or ‘goodness� for it. Going back to my comparison, perhaps the same way a person may think its ok to lie, exaggerate, or even cheat to gain someone’s love. This chant represented to me the ‘gray area� many of us are ok walking along as long as we gain our wanted end result. In the story we see how Macbeth writes to his wife Lady Macbeth and loves her. He tells her what a good woman she is, yet it’s mostly her pushing that ultimately convinces Macbeth to kill his close friend.
The witches may have suggested or pointed out an opportunity, but I have to wonder if Macbeth even needed to hear it from them. Seems to me if he was an ambitious man with an ambitious wife, it’s something they could of eventually come up with all on their own.
The repetitive chant may indicate the struggle going on in Macbeth’s mind, because he isn’t sure he can kill his friend. Again, that grey area of trying to make something that is usually viewed as “bad� ok because it will have a positive gain at the end. The more you think, “This is ok because I’m going to do good with it.� The easier it will be convince yourself it really is ok and eventually you go ahead and do the deed.

“Fair is foul and foul is fair.� What this chant means to me is that what is good is bad and what is bad is good and how the line of good and bad can be crossed so easily especially when there are other people incouraging you do bad deeds. Macbeth was good and hornorable but once the 3 witches visited him and told him of his future, they planted the seed of evil in him. Macbeth starts to envision himself murdering the prince but he fights with himself internally about the morality of what he's thinking. it gets harder to differentiate between good and evil when you have some one encouraging you to do evil like Lady Macbeth. For example, when Lady Macbeth tell him
"Wouldst thou have that,Which thou esteem’st the ornament of life,And live a coward in thine own esteem,Letting “I dare not� wait upon “I would, �
Like the poor cat i' th' adage?" she is twisting his mind the way she wants by calling him a coward and this makes Macbeth more determined to go through with murdering the king because he does not want to be a coward in anyone's eyes. this shows the duality of humanity by showing that a good virutous man can do evil deeds.

In the pl..."
Yes, Macbeth is being push by his corrupted ambitions, "Fair is foul and foul is fair" is just foreshadows the downfall of Macbeth by his own fault.

The funny thing of Macbeth is that his ambition is on a well place to be, the corruption appears when the witches start toying with his mind, and since his wife is pushing him to do such thing, he forgets what he really was.


Great Job Angel! You could define very well foul like something ugly. I agree with Angel when he mentioned "Everything is fine, everyone likes their positions until the witches appear". He explained well "Fair is foul and foul is fair". How this phrase involved it into the play.

In the pl..."
Arturo refers to the two sides to do something. The bad and good side are the to ways to do something in life. Arturo explains Macbeth took the bad side to get the throne. He did not care nothing to get his dream.


Before the witches appeared before Macbeth and Banquo all is well and good. Once the witches tell Macbeth that he will be King things start to change. Once Lady Macbeth finds out it seems as though nothing can come between her and becoming King. I think in the beginning when the witches state "Fair is foul and foul is fair" it shows maybe like an insight as to what is to come, like a preminission. We see this building up through Act 1 and carried out in Act 2. Fair is foul and foul is fair I somewhat took like or is almost like what you have now is not good enough, but it is ok to do what you have to do in order to get there... in this case being Thane of Glamis was "ok" but being Thane of Glamis and Cawdor is better... but being King of Scotland... now that would be great. I also saw Lady Macbeth's persona change from a loving wife while starting to read Macbeth's letter to turning into the little green monster as her eyes turned green with greed of wanting Macbeth to be King no matter what the cost. After the murders of King Duncan, his sons, and the other men Lady Macbeth's reaction of oh "just a little water clears us of this deed" shows her complete disregard of human life and the sin committed reinforcing the witches chant of "Fair is foul and foul is fair".

Throughout the passage this chant is always being said. I'am guessing that the reason that it is being repeated because it has a significant meaning to it. At the very beginning of the passage the three witches clearly state it and I'am thinking it is being said to set the tone for the passage. What this quote basically means to me is that what is good is bad and what is bad is good. Basically the opposite of what it is saying. This chant can also be seen as trying make somebody do something bad to get something good out of it. For example in the passage it states that if Macbeth gets the title as king he will have to do something bad like "murder". The witches state that when they are telling him about him becoming king. Macbeth knows that if he wants the title as king he knows that eventually hes going to have to commit something bad because that's the only way that things are going get done if he wants the title as king. This chant is basically contradicting itself.


The expression "Fair is foul and foul is fair", is in a way a fine line between two sides; this case light and dark. Humans in general are blind, prideful, and full of avarice (greed). Should we want something badly, odds are we will stop at nothing to get what we desire. It is this type of lust that can turn even the brightest flame to a mere snuffed out light.
Macbeth is such a character and his cousin Banquo notices this right off the bat in Act I, Scene III (A Heath Near Forres): "But 'tis strange; and oftentimes to win us to our harm the instruments of darkness tell us truth/s win us with honest trifles, to betray's..." (948; lines 122 -25) Here Banquo is heeding a warning to Macbeth. Yes, you might desire what you want, but at what cost will you obtain this goal? Are you ready to face the actions of your decisions?
Macbeth is torn between the light and dark within himself. In mythological literary aspects, he is facing his Shadow: "If good, why do I yield to that suggestion whose horrid image doth unfix my hair And make my seated heart knock at my ribs, Against the use of nature? Present fears Are less than horrible imaginings. My thought, whose murder yet is but fantastical, Shakes so my single state of man That function is smothered in surmise, And nothing is but what is not." (948; Lines 135 - 43).
The true question here is, will he have the power to overcome it? Or will he eventually fall into himself and surrender to the darkness?


I think that when the witches were saying this they meant good is bad and bad is good like you said. Just because you may kill someone for something good doesn't make it good. “I am thane of Cawdor. If good, why do I yield to that suggestion “Whose horrid image doth unfix my hair.� Macbeth had begun to have desires to murder the king because he wanted to become king faster. Macbeth kills King Duncan which is bad and gets worse.

I agree with your opinion on the play of Macbeth, there is always a dark side and the good side of everything. The quote “Fair is foul and foul is fair is defining on darkness. How Mrs. Macbeth got involved with the dark side and the wicked witches. You explain and give proof of how Mrs. Macbeth says to Macbeth of what kind of man hes acting like and how she has more confidence of what a man she can be compared to himself.

Amanda, I too found it interesting as you pointed out: “everyone in the play enjoyed their positions except until when the witches would appear�. Even though the appearance by the witches seems to be a catalyst for the events to come, I can’t help but wonder what was truly in the heart of Macbeth and Lady Macbeth. Perhaps even without encountering the witches, they (Macbeth and Lady Macbeth) already possessed qualities that would take them down a dark path at some point in their life.

“Fair is f..."
Paula, you're right I definitely agree with you I also pointed out Macbeth ambition throughout the story and agree with the way lady Macbeth persuaded him into some of his actions. I also liked the part you pointed out how the chant may have indicated the struggle going trough Macbeths mind.

"Fair is ..."
Elizabeth, I agree with your interpretation that we all have different perspectives and to not judge too quickly. We cannot know their entire story. I keep thinking along these lines with regard to Macbeth’s actions. Even though we can all agree that what he did was wrong, to what degree was it wrong? The story takes place during a very violent time when life was not considered precious. Perhaps taking one more life was easier for him to consider as an option than it would be for us.

"Fair is ..."First of all, my apologies to all my group members for not writing a thing in response to the question at hand. You had a better handle than I did in understanding what it was about. When I read the first three pages, I got so involved in trying to understand some of the words but lost my focus on who is talking or what the story’s about. It was a little better after I hit the “Listen� button and was a whole lot better after seeing it on screen in the classroom. Your assessment of “Fair is foul and foul is fair� is food for thought. I’m not sure if there’s more to it. The fact that you could see the duality representation of the good and dark side shows you’re focused. Good job!


"Fair is ..."
Elizabeth explains what the statement "Fair is foul, and foul is fair", and gives her opinion about the good and bad. She also states the way Macbeth was acting. Elizabeth defines humanity in her own opinion and explains how everybodys actions are different from everyone else’s.

I agree with you and I also agree with the comment Mrs. Reyes put that they were more of options because he had to choose between good or bad. I also like how you define "fair is foul and foul is fair", because that saying can be define in different perceptions.

Very well said on how you defined "fair is foul and foul is fair", I wouldn't have seen it in that point of view but it makes sense. Very good job on seeing that, I also agree with what you say about how the witches have caused Macbeth to choose what he does. Well written answer and I agree with your statements.

The chant..."
First I'd like to say I'm sorry if i hadn't replied to the right people in my group. I thought I understood the good reads, but I think I don't. I'm going to get help on that tomorrow on that hopefully. Now, Mary I don't understand what you mean when you say that fairness and foulness go hand in hand. Do you mean you can't be fair unless your unfair? I do like how you describe that Macbeth liked what the witches was telling him that why he trusted him, but that doesn't mean the witches cared for him. Your right that's true. You make a really good point when you say that throughout the whole story no one can be trusted. Macbeth can't even trust his wife in a way because like the story says when Macbeth does not want to continue with the plan Lady Macbeth makes him feel less of a man.

The chant..."
I agree with you Mary. Macbeth at the beginning was honest and loyal to the king,but as soon as the evil seed was planted in his head, with the help of lady Macbeth evil took over him. He did things that later hunted him and made him go crazy.

Throughout the passage thi..."
Yes I agree with you, the chant does set the tone for the story/play. Macbeth felt the only way to get to the throne was by killing the king. thought the play we get to see de evil and the real side of Macbeth.

Before th..."
Lady Macbeth does have to do with Macbeth killing King Duncan. As soon as she read the letter she was already planning and became an evil person. I guess all people have good and evil inside them but like Lady Macbeth was already evil she just needed that push to become like the witches.

Yes, the witches do play an important role on what Macbeth does. I guess the witches already knew what Macbeth was capable of doing. That is why they appear to him telling him “fair is foul and foul is fair.�

We all do good thing but we also do bad things. Ambitious everyone has it but some just do bad things to get it like Macbeth when he was influenced by the witches. He went so far to kill the King for his ambitious.

Lindsay, I admire how much you were able to comprehend from the text. I completely agree with you idea that people get lost in trying to reach a goal that they take whatever means to make it happen. Although Macbeth showed to have some remorse and doubt, he completely disregarded those emotions and like you mention his ambition beat out the good.

I'm glad to see I was not the only one that had trouble understanding this play. Although I feel you do have the right idea and I agree that the witches were definitely put as instigators towards Macbeth's actions of killing. The bad and his ambition beat out the good and best of him converting him into someone he would have trouble living with himself.

Throughout the passage thi..."
I don't think Macbeth had to kill the king to become king. I am not familiar with the king situation how does it work, but Macbeth was already going to be working with Duncan. “O worthiest cousin,
The sin of my ingratitude even now
Was heavy on me. Thou art so far before
That swiftest wing of recompense is slow
To overtake thee,� says King Duncan. Duncan already liked Macbeth and his wife. Maybe Duncan after seeing all the hard work and trust Macbeth would have done he would appoint him king. I agree with what you say that the chant can also be seen as trying to make somebody do something bad to get something good out of it. Sometimes they think what there getting is good. For example, let's say instead of becoming king Macbeth was told he would be rich. The way it was prayed for to Satan's demons pretty much he would get rich by killing someone, his family member dying of something and he inherent the fortune, or he could work very hard to achieve this. It all depends on how you want to take action. Like i told the other group member bad done for a good thing is still bad.

Elvia, I have never gone to a witch/curandera like you said it, but I have read several documentaries about this topic. I can tell you that based on several investigations and experiments that do and do not proof if the mystic creatures exist some people still believe in them. Also, I agree with you when you mentioned “they might tell you what you want to hear,� and this is true to me because human beings are vulnerable; however, there are some more than others.

"Fair is ..."
i agree with you when you mentioned that Macbeth had a serious ambition of been a king and his wish make him turned himself from good to a bad person, which basically demonstrated that the witches predictions were true and Macbeth just killed the king because his faith was over and he only listened his wife.

well all know that good and bad exist and people do those things, and I agree with you when you mention that go with those type of people as witches or curanderas they can they you what do you want and like to hear and they can threat you at any time but the true is that evil is always there as long as good.

"Fair is ..."
you mentioned a very interesting point when ambition can take control and turn you into something that you never thought about it and make you a bad or good person and can take everything from you.

“Fair is ..."
Kristina I definitely agree with you. The quote you used is most definitely the one who lead me as the reader to realize how manipulative lady Macbeth was. When you mentioned how the witches planted the seed of evil after their first encounter was very important to understand scene 1 and the rest of the play.