ŷ������

Lee - "I want to say right now how much I have enjoyed this group read, of all of the work you have put in, and for making this story come alive for me."

It's been really lovely to have you along Lee. All your comments - including these today - have been spot on. Thank you 😊

Jim wrote: "This is undoubtedly among the darkest of Dickens�� works, set mostly in a vicious, dangerous world of degradation, crime and corruption ...."

I agree Jim! No doubt this would surprise those who have never read the original text. All the riots, brutal behaviour and misery he would describe in A Tale of Two Cities and Barnaby Rudge are here in essence.

As you say Jim "But in so doing, Dickens sought to demonstrate that evil CAN be overcome, by facing up to it and addressing the social ills that create such misery"

As we see, Charles Dickens was to keep to this "manifesto" his entire life, but toned down the vituperative comments and sardonic diatribes when he was older. He was to make sure that he balanced the humour with the tragedy, to keep people reading; just as he describes at the beginning of a chapter of Oliver Twist, saying as we read, that "life is like streaky bacon". Otherwise, (and allowing for the publishing difficuties), I don't think his writing improved from this at all. His talent shines out from the start.

Thank you for all your interesting comments in this read, Jim 😊

Thank you, Jean, another rich and well organized reading!! Thank you all for your useful comments!

Daniela wrote: "Thank you, Jean, another rich and well organized reading!! Thank you all for your useful comments!"

I'm so pleased you enjoyed it Daniela, (and Cornwall too, hopefully!) and hope you will be able to join us for even more contributions next time 😊

Thank you so much Jean for all your research and hard work with these daily summaries and the wealth of additional information about the time, place, customs, publication problems and more!

I've also thoroughly enjoyed everyone's comments.

I loved Oliver Twist when I read it a few years ago but this experience has made it exponentially better. It's thrilling to know that the next time I read Dickens, I can look to see if there is a thread here. I'm hoping to get to Little Dorrit by next year and I know that one is here.

Sue wrote: "Thank you so much Jean for all your research and hard work with these daily summaries and the wealth of additional information about the time, place, customs, publication problems ..."

I'm so pleased you enjoyed it Sue, and I look forward to you joining in in again! Oh yes, do use and add to our threads for Little Dorrit if you read it - that was a wonderful group experience 😊

Jean, I want to add my thanks to those of everyone else here. I get so much more out of Dickens when I read one of his books with this group than when I read on my own.

Katy wrote: "Jean, I want to add my thanks to those of everyone else here. I get so much more out of Dickens when I read one of his books with this group than when I read on my own."

🥰 Katy, you have given me my first smile of the day! I'm so pleased you joined in and enjoyed it so much.

I would like to join in and thank Ms. Bionic for facilitating this group read. I know I speak for everyone on how much we appreciate the effort she puts in especially sharing all the supplementary information.

I do want to thank Ms. Bionic and the other participants for the kind feedback on my attempts to add to the conversation. One of the joys of this group read is everyone brings a unique perspective.

As has been mentioned before, "Oliver Twist" is such a disjointed work. Dickens relegates the narrator much more to the background. Oliver almost disappears with Nancy becoming the focal point on which the novel revolves around. All the characters are chess or puzzle pieces that serve to fit a certain role with no development or any story arc. The one exception is Nancy.

"Oliver Twist" is interesting because of how Dickens will continue to recycle and further develop similar themes and motifs in his future works.

Why is this novel so popular? To me. it is the cast of colorful and varied characters from the pure innocence of Oliver to the malevolent demonic Fagin, and a straightforward good v. evil story the reader can be emotionally invested in. This can be shown with the TV series "Dickensian" that is filled with characters from "Oliver Twist".

I wanted to take a couple of days for the novel and discussion to set before adding my thoughts. In adding my appreciation to Jean for all her work in providing the summaries and background for discussion, I want to especially thank her for the effort put forth moderating. It seems a difficult task at this magnitude to juggle the opinions of the many participants, understanding and responding to each, while at the same time maintaining a direction for the novel that will serve to satisfy all. I admire the effort, patience, and skill, exhibited.

When I started the novel, my goal was to determine if and why it is a classic. I feel that goal was well satisfied and that the novel is not only classic but an enduring classic, a must-read in the canon for a variety of reasons, but mostly for the influence on a variety of future cultural elements. Still, I felt we only touched on the novel in our discussion and I have far more questions stimulated after reading the book than I had before. One reason is that the novel has multiple layers available for investigation and IMO, despite what has been accomplished, there is much more room for significant study and criticism. I sometimes feel that the criticism of Victorian literature is a little too close to present day and much of the criticism falls back to historical or biographical discussion without wandering much further. So unlike a discussion of a Shakespearean play where there is movement in discussion from Elizabethan norms to the relevance of the work to present day, Victorian works seem to settle before reaching the latter. Cuts in academic funding of liberal arts and decline in print media has taken a toll on literary criticism but I hope some aspiring scholars may take up the slack and delve further into this novel in the future.
The novel, at this present time, seems to be in a cycle of unpopularity compared to Great, Expectations, David Copperfield or Bleak House, more polished and adult works, but IMO, Oliver Twist is equally as important. The Guardian left it off this ten best works of Dickens list from 2020, and that should prompt an arguing response.

The trend was already in effect in 2011 from this reader's poll on their favorite Dickens novel where Oliver Twist gets only 5%.

So I hope Oliver Twist gets more positive attention in the future and that there is more unique criticism devoted to the novel. Thanks again Jean and everyone for interesting comments and a good discussion.

Michael wrote: "I would like to join in and thank Ms. Bionic for facilitating this group read. I know I speak for everyone on how much we appreciate the effort she puts in especially sharing all the supplementary ..."

Thank you so much Michael. I'm so pleased you joined in with this read and made such great contributions, including this one 😊 I'm delighted you enjoyed all the different perspectives.

How I wish there had been another "Dickensian" TV series! One was planned, with Oliver at its centre this time, rather than Inspector Bucket, but the money just wasn't there 🤔

Hi Sam,

Your first link is not the Guardian's choice as a whole, but goes to one critic A.N. Wilson's personal choice (as I understand it). I think his first favourite book Selected Journalism 1850-1870 (edited by David Pascoe) is a little idiosyncratic, and does not reflect the general population's choice. He may well be trying to draw more public attention to it, which is good. Certainly we do read Charles Dickens's journalism, as your upcoming read proves, 😊but we are unusual in this. (Your personal choice for the group, for example, does not even have a separate GR entry or publication!)

The second article is representative of the readship, and shows The Old Curiosity Shop at only 1%! Oliver Twist seems to be about halfway in popularity, which is as I would have expected. You're right that the novel itself is not as popular now as formerly, even though adaptations and stage shows still proliferate. I'm afaid it is probably the simple fact the people cannot get away from the depiction of Fagin as an evil Jew. For some reason the depiction of Bill Sikes as an evil member of a Christian country does not offend the general public. Those who reject the novel on this basis are probably not the ones who would read the postive Jewish portrayals in his later works. (Mr. Riah in Our Mutual Friend is a wonderful, benevolent and kind presence.)

You might think this is simplistic, but I think it is true. Once an idea takes hold, it is difficult to break. I fear the prejudice here is in the readers, and not the book itself.

Sam wrote: "In adding my appreciation to Jean for all her work in providing the summaries and background for discussion, I want to especially thank her for the effort put forth moderating ..."

Thank you so much Sam! It's tricky for sure, but when people are as tolerant and receptive to others' views, as they are here, it leads for a very rich read. I appreciate this from everyone enormously.

"I felt we only touched on the novel in our discussion"

That surprised me, as I sometimes feared after 8 or 9 daily posts or so that I had gone too deep! But it seems to work each time for those who join in, and you are always welcome to say more if you wish. But perhaps you are saying this in the same spirit as I did, when I said I only scratched the surface in my final day's summing up. We did after all, attempt to probe the entire novel, each day, for nearly 3 months. I remember you were busy with "summer and catching up with other reads" during ch 34-43 and part of the next thread, so perhaps you missed some posts.

Anyway, as you say, I try as moderator to "maintain ... a direction for the novel that will serve to satisfy all". I often say I want our group to be both inclusive and scholarly, and hope I have facilitated this, without getting too bogged down in detail. If I write a short piece, and title it, then it can be enjoyed and followed up, or ignored by those who wish to. Statistically speaking if half are with us by the end, then I'm happy. So far 42 have completed the read 😊

"the novel has multiple layers available for investigation"

It does indeed! And just to clarify, there is actually quite a large body of critical body devoted to this work alone. Here are some (I hope your eyes don't glaze over!)

As well as general books on Charles Dickens, the Dickens scholar David Paroissien has written two books about this novel which I would like to read, called The Companion to Oliver Twist and Oliver Twist: An Annotated Bibliography. Both of these are over 300 pages. Then there are sections in the books I have mentioned by Humphry House, Fred Kaplan and Kathleen Tillotson plus the individual essays I have selected from the Norton edition. I gave an overview of the ones by Burton M. Wheeler (text and plan), John Bayley (inner/outer selves), Janet Larson (religion), David Miller (police), John O. Jordan (handkerchiefs), George Gissing, and a couple of others ... there are 20 academics represented in these additional essays including the writers Henry James and Graham Greene. I also precised a couple of essays from elsewhere by John Sutherland.

Additionally, G.K. Chesterton, George Orwell, Michael Slater, Peter Ackroyd, Simon Callow, and Jane Smiley all have discrete sections on Oliver Twist in their books as well as The Oxford Companion to Charles Dickens (I think there is a Cambridge one too) - and these are just the ones off the top of my head. There really is a huge critical body of work devoted to this novel, and it continues to grow with articles in the Dickens Fellowship's journal.

"I have far more questions stimulated after reading the book than I had before ... there is much more room for significant study and criticism."

So I hope you can track some of these, or other ones, down, and add to your own critical enjoyment of Oliver Twist 😊

I always enjoy your take on our reads very much Sam, particularly the visual lighting aspects, and attention to language. So I look forward to more of your thoughts in future reads.

"I felt we only touched on the novel in our discussion"

That surprised me, as I sometimes feared after 8 or 9 daily posts or so that I had gone too deep! But it seems to work each time for those who join in, and you are always welcome to say more if you wish. But perhaps you are saying this in the same spirit as I did, when I said I only scratched the surface in my final day's summing up. We did after all, attempt to probe the entire novel, each day, for nearly 3 months. I remember you were busy with "summer and catching up with other reads" during ch 34-43 and part of the next thread, so perhaps you missed some posts.

No I caught all the posts and I thought your coverage was excellent. I was alluding to my preference for deeper discussions on a variety of questions and thoughts that occurred to me while reading. I am not sure a ŷ������ forum is able to host such discussions. It is a social media of varied interests and backgrounds and any type of debate is capable of degenerating into negatives that happen on most social media. So I ventured a few thoughts into our discussion but kept most to myself so as to not create problems. One example was an idea that was touched on in the last days of the discussion and that is whether the novel is a child's novel or its suitability for children. I think both of those topics bypass what I feel is more important-- the role of Oliver Twist in influencing future literature written in response to the growing market of literature for children and young adults and the novel's role in establishing accepted educational values for that market. In both cases the results might be indirect rather than direct but I think there are connections. And such fascinates me. Once again that discussion is probably a bit out of the scope of ŷ������ discussions and the interests of all members. My hope is that some self-motivated young one will peruse discussions like what you have provided, perhaps arrive at similar questions, and be determined enough to research a grad thesis out it.

Sam wrote: "I am not sure a ŷ������ forum is able to host such discussions ..."

Yes, I thought it might be something like that ... It's certainly tricky because of its linear format, but we do try! In some groups you can find, frustratingly, that a well-argued and informative post is passed by without notice, usurped by a 3 word misspelt rubbishy one 🙄 But we all try our best to cope with this, and not give up, because the benefits are so great. Plus it doesn't happen much, if ever, here in this group. The main difficulty is staying on topic. For instance the only reason it's appropriate to discuss this in a thread titled "Oliver Twist: Chapters 44 - 53" is because we are right at the end of the novel. Otherwise I would ask that it be moved to the parlour (which isn't a bad idea anyway for these general points about modes of discussion).

I think we can potentially get more out of a read like this than out of 2 or 3 talks, or even a short course, because we discuss in detail as we read, rather than afterwards more widely. There is also a lot more interaction, rather than "questions afterwards", but this does mean it is partly up to you. The more each of us puts in, the more each of us gets out of it. Where there's a will there's a way ...

ŷ������ is pretty hopeless for commenting in retrospect, (i.e. after everyone has read the novel, as in "real life" book groups) and there are hundreds of virtually empty threads all over the place. Our reads though usually have a couple of hundred relevant comments in each thread, because they are ongoing daily. This is comment 265. I(we)'ve been thinking about Oliver Twist for months now, rather than a couple of afternoons, or whatever.

But there is a place for both.

You say that you "kept most to myself so as to not create problems"

Please don't do this, (unless they are off-topic thoughts). This is your forum! It is true that "any type of debate is capable of degenerating into negatives that happen on most social media" but you don't need to fear that. I can promise that if inappropriate responses were to happen here, I would delete them.

We did touch on whether the novel is a child's novel or its suitability for children, as you say, and since you "think both of those topics bypass what I feel is more important," which you feel is:

"the role of Oliver Twist in influencing future literature written in response to the growing market of literature for children and young adults "

Then please do feel free to expand on this Sam; it's a great topic!

So how has the novel influenced the children's novels which followed? And what relevance, if any, do you think the novel has for modern children?

Anyone is welcome of course, to answer this question sparked by Sam's post.

Bionic Jean wrote: "Sam wrote: "I am not sure a ŷ������ forum is able to host such discussions ..."

It's certainly tricky because of its linear format. In some groups you can find, frustratingly, that a well-argued..."

Well since I have been up since the booker longlist announcement, I will leave my answer till tomorrow when I edit this post..

Ch. 44: Nancy's bravery in following through on her covert campaign--one that could easily, and suddenly, lead to her own violent death if discovered (true bravery is action in the face of fear, not in ignorance of it, nor confidently bluffing one's way through it, etc., in my opinion)--makes her one of the more sympathetic characters in the book for me.

I look forward to seeing others' concluding comments about the book, once I get there. I've been 2-3 weeks behind the pack for a while, so hooray for the archival powers of the internet. :)

Beth wrote: "Ch. 44: Nancy's bravery ... makes her one of the more sympathetic characters in the book for me."

Me too, Beth. She's unforgettable! Yet Charles Dickens felt the need to defend her in his later prefaces. I suppose 1838 was just too early for this type of thinking.

I am sure Bionic Jean covered this in earlier posts, but just in case we have forgotten:

“The evangelical movement of the 19th century denounced prostitutes and their clients as sinners, and society for tolerating it. The Vagrancy Act 1824 introduced the term "common prostitute" into English Law and criminalised prostitutes with a punishment of up to one month hard labour.�� Wikipedia

I am sure there are better academic sources for this information. But as I was thinking of Nancy and our modern outpouring of sympathy for her, I believe that Dickens was an outlier in his concern and pity for Nancy, just as he was for other fallen and abused women in Victorian times. The previous century saw the origin of the Pietist movement in Christian thought, putting virtue and consciousness of sin in a prominent position. Nancy’s motivation was towards helping the innocent child Oliver.

Nancy was never motivated to find redemption in God’s eyes. There was very little desire in her for Christian repentance; her loyalty was to Bill Sikes for reasons we have discussed. She was offered a new life and the chance to escape by Mr. Brownlow on the steps near The London Bridge, yet she refused. Or rather, Nancy was unable to accept the escape offered her. Weeping, she said “You can do nothing to help me. I am past all hope, indeed.��

Dickens offered his Victorian audience a new vision: that there could be both good and bad in every person. Nancy is never just a prostitute or the mistress to a horrible thief. She is a character led astray by circumstance since she was a little girl, describing herself as an “infamous creature�� to Rose Maylie. Dickens believed all women were good at heart. As she waits to speak to Rose the first time, Dickens as narrator says “The girl’s life had been squandered in the streets . . . but there was something of the woman’s original nature left in her still.��

Whatever Dickens�� audience had to struggle with, he left it up to every reader’s own religious consciousness. Who would forget the last scene of the dying Nancy, pleading for God’s mercy, and perhaps also pleading for the reader’s sympathy as she folds her hands as in prayer and lifts the white handkerchief?

What a moving post you have written Lee 😥. I am sure you are right in every observation.

I was about to say the same, Lee. I truly enjoyed reading your thoughts.

Thank you. Dickens was risking his future career by putting the woman Nancy front and center. I’m going back to re-read Forster’s account if these days, but I don’t remember Dickens being overly concerned about the public’s reception. But he DID have to respond to the inevitable criticism, didn’t he, Jean?

Interesting perspective, Lee. Thank you for this. I hadn’t ever considered this.

Lee G wrote: "Dickens was risking his future career by putting the woman Nancy front and center ... I don’t remember Dickens being overly concerned about the public’s reception. But he DID have to respond to the inevitable criticism, didn’t he, Jean?..."

Charles Dickens did indeed, and was aware at the time of the storm his portrayal of Nancy was causing: LINK HERE includes quotations of the parts in his preface just 2 years later in 1841, where he felt he had to defend Nancy.

I'm assuming that all who wish to have now read the whole of Charles Dickens's preface in their edition, My post LINK HERE shows exactly what his thoughts were on the day he wrote of Fagin's death; by now it was all very carefully constructed.

Nancy had to be very real, but also had to die, to consolidate the thesis of this novel.

LINK HERE

We also need to remember that Nancy and Rose are two sides of one coin. They are both 17 and have similar origins. This is a post about our first impressions of Nancy LINK HERE

but their differing circumstances at the hands of society ends in tragedy for Nancy and bliss for Rose LINK HERE. (You will remembr that Rose nearly died, but that Nancy does.)

Charles Dickens was so committed to his beliefs and so confident in his own abilities, that he would not have considered a writing career being more important than sharing his truth. This was the first novel following after his factual reporting, and that approach to things stayed close to his heart, allied to a great sense of the dramatic.

But it was not easy for him. He did not write this for sensationalist reasons, as some readers then and now might think, but to expose an ugly truth. We learned about Charles Dickens's lifelong obsession with Nancy, and how his commitment to showing the truth of Nancy - and of all the "Nancy"s of this world - played a huge part in what literally killed him LINK HERE.

I'm simply amazed at all of the work Jean put into our discussion of Oliver Twist. She carefully researched the book, studied it, and provided extremely useful information for all of us. In addition she commented on all we had to say and moderated the traffic. Thank you very much.

I read Oliver eons ago and saw a college play production and the Oliver musical movie, all which made me think this was one of Dickens best. Now I realize it isn't his best, but a writing stepping stone for him. In some ways he was stuck with making a novel out of a small piece of fun writing. I don't know what he planned on doing with his original monthly posts. But, he did write a fascinating book with it.

I was disappointed when Oliver was no longer the focus. If the book ended after he was accepted into Rose and her aunt's house, it could, with some deletions, be a children's book. But once the focus returns to Nancy and Bill, the themes are too mature. I personally preferred it when Oliver was the focus.

All through our reading I've had problems with Cruikshank's depictions of Oliver. After a while he no longer looks like a boy. Now I realize that Oliver's legs are too long. At times we are not sure of Oliver's age, but Cruikshank usually gives him the legs of a fast growing teen. I think that happens because he does not want to show Oliver heavy in the trunk since he is supposed to be always hungry.

Kathleen wrote: "I'm simply amazed at all of the work Jean put into our discussion of Oliver Twist. She carefully researched the book, studied it, and provided extremely useful information for all of us. In addition she commented on all we had to say and moderated the traffic. Thank you very much..."

What a lovely comment to read! This has really give me a boost thank you Kathleen. I'm delighted you have completed the read, and enjoyed it so much.

"If the book ended after he was accepted into Rose and her aunt's house, it could, with some deletions, be a children's book.

This is a really interesting thought, because his granddaughter Mary Angela Dickens did precisely that, when she rewrote Charles Dickens's stories in Stories for Children from Dickens. Great minds think alike 😁

"I've had problems with Cruikshank's depictions of Oliver."

It's generally agreed among Charles Dickens's critics that George Cruikshank was not good at drawing the human form. In particular, he makes the heads too big. (This would be OK in respect of children of course, but not for adults.)

We do know Oliver's age; he is nine when the action proper begins, i.e. not counting his birth scene. Then by the end of the novel he is twelve, so yes his legs are a little long, but I agree, he always looks hungry. Good observation!

I was away for the ending of this read, and have now finished the book and caught up on all of the posts! I will try to limit my comments since everyone is done, and apologize for the long post, but there are some things I just MUST say. :-)

Jean, these in-depth discussions are even better than the few literature classes that were my favorites in college. I learn so much, and cannot thank you enough for the study and care and skill and patience that must go into moderating them. And you make it possible for us to learn from everyone involved, which I appreciate so much. What a wonderful experience.

I want to reply to a few posts: Sam’s msg 175 - thank you for pointing out Dickens�� use of repetitive sounds! Coupled with Lee G’s prior comments about reading aloud reminds me why reading Dickens is a singular experience. Also betrayal as musical-type motif. I would add also betray-ers, shedding light on what can cause betrayal. Msg 194--I love �������岵���’s comparison of the mob to a Greek chorus! A kind of mesmerism perhaps? Jean’s msg 211 about Gissing’s comment--I think Gissing just comes at this differently. He took much from Dickens, and it’s okay he establishes some difference! I like both of their approaches. Werner’s msg 218-- my husband and I use cloth handkerchiefs too! Having been raised on disposable tissues, I can’t bring myself to blow my nose in them, but do use them as napkins and when we get takeout, always having to convince servers that no, we really do not need that pile of paper napkins. I take your environmentally friendly point seriously! And as Sam says in msg. 260, I end this read with more questions than when I began. I think this is due to the pace and way Jean leads, to let us contemplate the multiple layers Sam appreciates.

My last observation is about the ending. I love the emphasis on MERCY, that even though Agnes may have done wrong, she is still loved by god and deserving of being in the church. What a wonderful tone to leave us with at the end of this remarkable tale.

Kathleen, thank you! What a beautiful summary you have given us. It is good to remember all that we have learned and experienced in this journey.

And what you say about the depth of Jean’s study: I was an English literature major in college and we never took either the time or the care to fine tune our analysis of Dickens. Nothing matches Jean’s focus and research!

Kathleen wrote: "Jean, these in-depth discussions are even better than the few literature classes that were my favorites in college. I learn so much, and cannot thank you enough for the study and care and skill and patience that must go into moderating them. And you make it possible for us to learn from everyone involved, which I appreciate so much. What a wonderful experience ..."

Kathleen - I'm really over the moon that it has all worked so well, and that you have got a lot out of our read. It makes the hard work worth doing, and yes indeed, we do all learn from each other. I think that is one of the real pluses from a GR group.

Please never apologise for a long post!

"I end this read with more questions than when I began. I think this is due to the pace and way Jean leads, to let us contemplate the multiple layers Sam appreciates."

In a sense we could start this over again, and have a completely different experience and discussion! I'm so pleased to have opened up the possibilities with this, and know that friends here will never let it be said in their hearing that Oliver Twist is "just a kid's book"!

I enjoyed all your comments Kathleen, and particularly your last point about mercy, which is spot on 😊

Thank you!

I've now, finally, read the powerful Ch. 47. One or two thoughts, some about the text, some outside it.

Handkerchief: the image that came to mind for me, with Nancy waving the white handkerchief from Rose, was of surrender, a plea for mercy, "raising the white flag."

New-ish character Noah: I don't think that the Dodger would have worked as the spy, not because he'd have heroicially tried to save Nancy (since I by no means see him as that kind of character), but because he's so unflappable. I think he'd have presented what he saw straightforwardly, or embellishing things to draw attention to his own role in the scene rather than pin blame on Nancy, perhaps diffusing rather than inflaming Sikes' anger as the lying Noah did.

Nancy and Sikes: I recently went to a series of live play performances, that had an appended series of seminars or lectures. At one point, the lecturer said that a study had been done that showed the audience's breathing (and/or heart rate?) went into synch during the performance of a play. How fascinating. It's easy to imagine that energy making its way into the performers, too, in this case Dickens, as he acts out that gripping scene. No wonder he had them fainting in the aisles! :D

With that in mind though, I feel conflicted about Nancy's death scene. I can't help reflecting on how we, as a culture, are attracted to images of brutality toward women. Since we get to know Nancy before she dies, she isn't an anonymous object of pity, but still, the discomfort remains.

Bionic Jean wrote: "know that friends here will never let it be said in their hearing that Oliver Twist is "just a kid's book"!"

After this chapter, and some of the others, who is even saying this? Have they read the book? I can admittedly see the potential appeal for a younger reader in the earlier chapters of the book: the cartoonish, bawdy characters, the charismatic Dodger, pitiable Dick, the scene where a whole crowd chases after Oliver, and so on.

Beth wrote: "After this chapter, and some of the others, who is even saying this? ..."

Google, for one 😥 Type in the question "What age is Oliver Twist (appropriate) for?" It will answer in huge numbers "8 - 11 years"!

Well, that's certainly something. (she said, wiping the nervous sweat off her brow with a white handkerchief)

Hi Everyone, and thank you for your comments and participation! I fell behind, but I've finished now and have read comments as I progressed. Thanks especially to Jean for teaching us so much to enrich our reading experience.

I also listened to the Librivox recording by Mil Nicholson (version 6), and she did an outstanding job on the reading. Highly recommended.

As a shameless plug, I will be moderating the reading of The Life and Opinions of Tristram Shandy, Gentleman beginning September 15. The book was one of Charles Dickens' favorites, and it is my absolute favorite as well. I encourage you all to join!

Erich C wrote: "Hi Everyone, and thank you for your comments and participation! I fell behind, but I've finished now and have read comments as I progressed. Thanks especially to Jean for teaching us so much to enrich our reading experience..."

I'm so pleased to see you back Erich, and of course understand why you couldn't comment quite as much (so exciting!) Please plug as much as you like in Mrs. Dickens's Parlour LINK HERE and don't forget everyone, we have THREE short reads before that. The first one is ongoing and very lively LINK HERE. Details of all our upcoming reads have been on our shelves (and in the Summer Reads thread) for about a month, and I'll message everyone in a while.

I've heard so many recommendations for Mil Nicholson 😊

I wonder who else is about to finish reading Oliver Twist. It's never too late to comment on any of the threads!

I have now written a second review of Oliver Twist, for the Oliver Twist (Norton Critical Editions) with lots of extra essays and criticism, edited by Fred Kaplan. After reading it alongside this group read, I felt it deserved it!

So here's a link to that one:

Jean's review

And here's a link to my original review written before this read:

Jean's review

Obviously both books get ⭐⭐⭐⭐�� from me! I'm also working my way through reviews for the 4 other books I read for this read, but will mention those elsewhere.

Shirley (stampartiste) wrote: "Chapter 49 is indeed convoluted, and I appreciate everything you did to clarify all the relationships and all the actions for us."

Seconding Shirley's comment here. As I was listening to the audio of this chapter, I ended up pausing and following along with Jean's summary of who was who, who was related to who, etc. because I was hopelessly lost in places. We've got two generations of Monks' family, two different men dying abroad in Rome, and (apparently?) both Monks and Brownlow ended up in the West Indies at some point in time.

Putting this chapter after two very violent and/or emotional ones was kind of a miss though, I thought. Neither Monks nor Brownlow have been of central interest to me, and long explanations almost always are boring. Necessary? Maybe. Interesting? Not particularly. I'm sure the remainder of the book will have more excitement in store. Hoping to finish by Friday!

That's a very fair comment Beth! Given the fact that Charles Dickens had to tie all the ends up (some authors would not bother, and leave us to question, but he always would!) and was determined to get it finished quickly, to get his book in the shops and spite Bentley, it's not surprising it seemed unnecessarily convoluted. But I too think it's the weakest chapter.

And thank you! I hope you enjoy the ending 😊

Ch. 51:

Sara wrote: "I observed, as Sam says, that the tempo and use of the language builds itself into a crescendo. When read aloud, the feeling is somewhat like being swept down a river, with the mob pushing on every side."

Not a coincidence. I noticed this myself while listening to an audio narration of OT, and when I went back to "eye read" the passages describing the mob, found these on the second-last (in my edition) page of the chapter (italics mine):

"it seemed as though the whole city had poured its population out to curse him."

"on, on, on, in a strong struggling current of angry faces"

"Still the current poured on"

I'm sure there are others I missed; these were easy to find because they were all within a few lines of each other.

This indistinguishable and rather grotesque angry mass of humanity brought out a sense of horror in me. No one would want to be pursued by a mob!

Petra wrote: "This was a tense and action-filled chapter. The crowds being everywhere made the scene feel very claustrophobic. I'm sure Sikes felt as trapped as we did. There was no getting away from the mob."

I'm currently making my way through the essays in the Norton Critical Edition of OT, and there's an essay by J. Hillis Miller (starting on p. 432 of my copy) that emphasizes the claustrophobic feeling of the book, both in and out of doors (this is an oversimplification, but it does form part of it). He reminds us of the many times Oliver is trapped in a dark room, and the closed-in, labyrinthine streets of the squalid parts of London, as examples.

I'm so glad you're reading those essays Beth - they are excellent! (I think I summarised 4 of them here.)

Thank you too for these detailed observations 😊 Charles Dickens chose his words extremely carefully, so we can be sure something like this is deliberate.

I'm enjoying them more than I thought. Sometimes I have trouble appreciating (or, in some cases, understanding) academic writing, and was half-expecting I'd be bored or overwhelmed early on. So far, so good.

Yes, it's a good collection; not at all dry.

In my next life I intend to have 48 hours in a day so I can devote 24 of them to reading. These essays will have to go on the TBR now. I found your comments about the claustrophobic feeling very pertinent, Beth. There is, throughout, a feeling that things are closing in on everyone. When Sikes is running, he is out in the open areas much of the time, but there is still a feeling of closeness, and when he is drawn back to that closed in part of the city, Dickens has a way of making you feel the air being sucked from your lungs. With Nancy, it is when she is under the bridge that I feel the fog and terrain are stifling.

You have drawn me right back into Oliver again.

Ch. 52. Almost done!:

Sara wrote: "I did not feel sympathy for him, he was evil, willing, and certainly culpable in ruining many more lives than just Nancy's, but I did feel some kind of uneasiness about how this was done. I think Sutherland's "legal lynching" does describe it well."

"Sympathy" is a tricky question for me, with this chapter. Is it even possible? In this chapter, do we sympathize with Fagin, the red-haired devil with the toasting fork? The seething, mindless mob?

How about Oliver or Brownlow? Somehow I would have near as much trouble sympathizing with the angels as I would with the devil. I suppose on the whole, "sympathy" isn't an affect this book has had for me.

(Belatedly) Except Nancy. Of any of the characters, she's given enough complexity for me to hang sympathy upon. But she isn't in this chapter, for obvious reasons.

Ch 53: the end!

That last sentence brought tears to my eyes without my realizing why. In hindsight, maybe it was combined memories of Nancy's end, and of the haunting oblique presence of Mary, Dickens' sister-in-law, gone quickly and far too young. Good stuff.

On to everyone else's comments.

I had some things happening in my personal life that sent me away from ŷ������ for a couple months (and stalled all my reading for months), but I just got back to finishing Oliver Twist recently . . . though very late. Despite how late I am, I wanted to capture just a couple final thoughts.

For me, chapters 50 and 52 were extraordinarily moving, especially the Death of Fagin. I think chapter 52 was the one that struck me the most of any chapter in the book!

I don't know if "sympathize" is the right word because sympathizing suggests a measure of approval, but I do feel deeply sorry for Fagin in this chapter. I think the very fact that he is incapable of remorse is perfectly true to his character, and the fact that he's incapable makes me feel more pity for him rather than less. He has built a life such that an ending like this was inevitable, a life full of so much cruelty that his heart hardened by degrees, and he's incapable of any sort of redemption. What could be sadder than that? I even feel some empathy for him as a human animal in his terror, though my feeling has none of the approval of sympathy, just a deep sadness. Everything that has come before has been a brick in the road that was bound to end in exactly this place. At any moment, he could have walked in another direction, but the further he got and the harder his heart got, the more impossible it was for him to veer off of that terrible road because he lost the ability to even want to veer off of it. And once he could no longer want to veer, the outcome was as inevitable and horrifying as disasters in retrospect. And the worst and most terrible thing is that at every step, he lay the bricks of that road himself!

By the end, there's a cognitive dissonance of sorts. What he has invested his life in is fundamentally untrue; it lacks everything that the human animal needs. So what a harrowing night of the soul Fagin must undergo, and Dickens describes it perfectly, blow by blow in the finest detail. It was only because he "had never been able to consider more than the dim probability of dying so soon," that Fagin was able to live as he did . . . death in his spiritual state is too terrible to conceive. But now, it is too late to come to any terms with even the idea of death. He has no way to face it. He is "awake, but dreaming." He has gone nearly mad because the final circumstances of his life have made it impossible for him to ignore all that was untrue and wrong about all he has done, and his brain cannot even conceive the facts. It is a horror more chilling than all of the monsters of Lovecraft combined!

He has lived his life so, so badly that he has nothing to draw from to soften what is coming, not a single thing. It's a haunting sight, a terrible sight! I can't help but pity him before I shudder and turn away.

As others have said, thanks Jean for all you put into moderating this read and for all your wonderful expansions on the content; I definitely got more out of it in this format than I would have otherwise.

Greg - I enjoyed your comments on this emotional scene. Somewhere else, I believe it is in Sketches by Boz, Dickens describes the last day of someone condemned to death. This must be a subject that interested him. It is amazing that he can imagine it so vividly.

Thanks Katy! I didn't know that about Boz but it makes sense; Dickens' imagining of Fagin's last moments is extraordinary!

Katy wrote: "Greg - I enjoyed your comments on this emotional scene. Somewhere else, I believe it is in Sketches by Boz, Dickens describes the last day of someone condemned to death. This must be a subject that..."

Katy, it might be "A Visit to Newgate" that you are remembering. Dickens actually visited Newgate, spoke to the prisoners, and wrote this poignant essay. It's one of his best.

Connie wrote: "Katy, it might be "A Visit to Newgate" that you are remembering. Dickens actually visited Newgate, spoke to the prisoners, and wrote this poignant essay. It's one of his best..."

"A Visit to Newgate" sounds like a great short story the Dickensians! could read together next year.

Greg, I appreciated your thoughtful comments about the torment that Fagin went through at the end. Yes, he was already suffering the torments of hell for the choices he had made in life. Unfortunately, he had destroyed too many young lives for me to feel any empathy for him. Other youngsters went to the gallows or to the penal colonies because of him. I think Dickens understood that many of his readers would want to see Fagin suffer because of this. I know I was one of them.

Thanks for your comments, Greg.