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The Gothic Project - The Monk - Week 5 (Chap XI & XII
- or - Vol III Chap IV & V) & Entire Book

1) Ambrosio keeps going from bad to worse. Now he's drugged Antonia and rapes her. And yet is once again filled with is filled with self-disgust. Then once again blames her and holds her responsible for his moral downfall. Do you think, even after all his religious training, that he doesn't understand there are consequences of his actions? And that you can't blame others for your bad decisions?

2) Upon the fear of being discovered Ambrosio kills Antonia. Then he and Matilda are both taken into custody. Did Ambrosio killing Antonia surprise you? Was it the "natural" (for lack of a better word) progression of Ambrosio's sin? Did this take you by surprise at all?

3) Agnes is rescued, but unfortunately, her baby did not survive. She and Raymond are reunited and they marry. A happy ending, did you expect this? Especially given the book's inclusion into the "Gothic" category?

4) Ambrosio and Matilda are imprisoned and brought before the Grand Inquisitor. Ambrosio is tortured, tried, and set to be burned at the stake. He winds up making a deal with the devil who reveals that Antonia was Ambrosio's sister and Elvira his mother. In the end, Ambrosio dies a horrible death. What did you think of this? Did he get what he deserved?

5) Matilda, we learn, is a demon who took the form of a woman. This explains Matilda's erratic behavior in the book - she cycles between being sweet and domineering, between supporting Ambrosio and pushing him to greater crimes. Did you suspect Matilda of being anything other than a woman? Did you find this revelation interesting?
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I only have a couple of points to discuss regarding the book in its entirety. Please feel free to add any of your own.

1) One of the most damning criticisms of The Monk was made by Reverend Thomas Mathias, who called it blasphemous. Because of controversy like this, Lewis excised certain passages for the fourth and fifth editions. What do you think are the instances of blasphemy in the text? What critiques of Christianity does Lewis seem to be making? How might the novel be considered anti-Catholic?

2) What kind of position was Lewis taking with respect to the social and religious establishments of the eighteenth century? Might he have been commenting on what may happen when our individual choices are taken away?

3) Ann Radcliffe was disgusted by The Monk and retaliated with her version of a gothic novel called The Italian, first published in 1797. Radcliffe’s novel ends on a happy note with the lovers reuniting. This provided a stark contrast to Lewis' ending with Ambrosio’s demonical torture. Compare these endings. What seems to work better? Keep in mind that these novels were originally known as romance novels.

The read was so exhausting that I'm not sure I have the energy to say much. But I will try to address some of Gem's excellent questions when I have my energy back. But one is easy for me to address:

Gem wrote: "3) Agnes is rescued, but unfortunately, her baby did not survive. She and Raymond are reunited and they marry. A happy ending, did you expect this? "

A happy ending for Agnes maybe but not for all. I thought that the Agnes happy ending did not outbalance the loss of Antonia. I thought Antonia was more of a fleshed-out character and 'active' story participant so I cared more about her fate than that of Agnes. I would have preferred to have Antonia kept alive and have Agnes' die. I admit, though, that my fondness for Antonia suffered a bit by Lewis's crass attempts to make Antonia's death less tragic by having Antonia welcome death as it allowed her to rejoin her beloved mother in heaven. Yuck.

Agnes is going to have some serious PTSD for the rest of her life. Which they wouldn't have named or known how to treat back then. But at least she's safe and among friends.

i thought it would have been fitting for Ambrosio to be burned, but his ending was what he deserved. What a vile character.

I was also hoping Antonia would be spared, but I didn't expect her to be. Since Lorenzo had that premonition about her near the beginning, I expected she would die, whether by suicide or other means.

INteresting that there was a real ghost, real supernatural elements. Radcliffe usually had some real-world explanation for spooky things.

It was an interesting book overall, but Lewis was often too heavy-handed with the material. I'd be interested to see if he became more subtle in his later books.

Lori wrote: ".Lewis was often too heavy-handed with the material. I'd be interested to see if he became more subtle in his later books..."

Indeed. While it was quite precocious of Lewis to write and publish this at 19, the "heavy-handed" hyperbolic writing and overblown plot events that sometimes fell off the cliff really reflected his youth. At times the story reminded me of the type of exaggerated tale one of my teenage sons might have invented to explain why they had kept my car out all night. "You see Dad, this state trooper pulled me over and while I thought it was a man at first, it instead turned out to be this incredibly gorgeous woman! And when she started . . ."

This should be my actual review of the Monk. This time for sure ... I hope: /review/show...

I also found the ending heavy-handed, and did also regret the loss of Antonia. It seems impossible in any novels of any era before the 20th century for a "defiled" woman to be allowed to live and/or be reunited with her love, and I can't think of any novel where this happens. And while Agnes may have her happy ending (and she is only allowed to have this as she is marrying her "defiler", although their out of wedlock baby is not "allowed" to survive, likely as a way to atone for their sin) I agree that she may have terrible PTSD. So despite Lewis' strong anti-clerical views, he still follows the rules of sin and punishment like the most pious priest.

Not a great favourite of mine, for sure, but I'm only being confirmed in my sense that Gothic literature is not my cup of tea.

Brian E wrote: "The read was so exhausting that I'm not sure I have the energy to say much. But I will try to address some of Gem's excellent questions when I have my energy back. But one is easy for me to address..."

Brian, I felt pretty much the same way and was after all glad that I did not finish the book last night before going to sleep as I had originally intended.

At least some thoughts I had while reading the last chapters was:
- what was the purpose of Don Cristobal's character
- would we hear something more about Ambrosio's parentage - then all of a sudden the devil tells him that he raped his sister and killed his mother, but how did this all come along? Antonia was 15 years old and Ambrosio was 30 - at least somewhere it was mentioned that it was 30 years or so of piety... But who was the father? Elvira was reminded of someone by his voice - was that his father? Maybe I missed something...

2) Upon the fear of being discovered Ambrosio kills Antonia. Then he and Matilda are both taken into custody. Did Ambrosio killing Antonia surprise you? Was it the "natural" (for lack of a better word) progression of Ambrosio's sin? Did this take you by surprise at all?

No, this did not surprise me. He killed Elvira to save himself and avoid a witness of his deeds and does the same with Antonia. In the latter case he was just a little too late. Interesting is that he did not want Matilda to kill her, but when his person/ reputation was directly and for him visibly in danger he acted out of an impulse.

5) Matilda, we learn, is a demon who took the form of a woman. This explains Matilda's erratic behavior in the book - she cycles between being sweet and domineering, between supporting Ambrosio and pushing him to greater crimes. Did you suspect Matilda of being anything other than a woman? Did you find this revelation interesting?

Matilda seduced Ambrosio and from the very beginning got him to do more or less anything. She almost whispered his desires into his ear. Sometimes you get in such twist of your conscience doing something this or that way almost like good and evil whispering into your ears. Well, here it was definitely Mathilda and she was much stronger than Ambrosio's good inside. It would have required an angel to compensate for Matilda I guess. I thought that Elvira was a little bit like that. I am also wondering therefore what/ who his father was. I still cannot get over it that I might have missed something in that respect.

Brian E wrote: "The read was so exhausting that I'm not sure I have the energy to say much. But I will try to address some of Gem's excellent questions when I have my energy back. But one is easy for me to address..."

I think for me, the "happy ending" for the two characters threw me, I didn't expect anyone to have a happy ending because of the classification as gothic.

Lori wrote: "It was an interesting book overall, but Lewis was often too heavy-handed with the material. I'd be interested to see if he became more subtle in his later books."

I think what bothered me the most was, honestly, this was more akin to reading a teenage girl's diary. It was verbose and had an overly romantic view of life. He was young when he wrote it so that explains this, at least in part.

Brian E wrote: " At times the story reminded me of the type of exaggerated tale one of my teenage sons might have invented to explain why they had kept my car out all night. "You see Dad, this state trooper pulled me over and while I thought it was a man at first, it instead turned out to be this incredibly gorgeous woman! And when she started"

This is what I was eluding to above, only much more eloquent than the way I put it.

Frances wrote: "Not a great favourite of mine, for sure, but I'm only being confirmed in my sense that Gothic literature is not my cup of tea."

I have been drawn to this book for a long time, I'm not sure why. It didn't live up to my expectations but I'm glad I read it... now it's off my TBR list!

Hedi wrote: "But who was the father? Elvira was reminded of someone by his voice - was that his father? Maybe I missed something..."

I don't think you did, if you did, so did I. I think this is one of those "mysteries" we just didn't get an answer to.

Elvira married a nobleman, angering his father. They fled Spain and settled in Cuba, leaving behind their young son. The still-angry grandfather took the boy from Elvira's family, and claimed he died soon after. Instead, grumpy Gramps gave him to a convent (or whatever the terminology is). This was Ambrosio.

In Cuba, Elvira gave birth to Antonia many years later. I think it was mentioned that she'd had several miscarriages or stillbirths, or that her other children had died young (I don't remember for sure), so this is why there's such a big age gap between Ambrosio and Antonia, who are fully siblings.

Ambrosio's voice reminded Elvira of her late husband's voice.

Gem wrote: "I have been drawn to this book for a long time, I'm not sure why. It didn't live up to my expectations but I'm glad I read it... now it's off my TBR list!"

My feelings almost exactly but I know why I was drawn to it. I try to read many 18th Century classics but I do find many of them tedious, including some of the more fun and satirical ones such as History of Tom Jones, a Foundling and Tristam Shandy. Interesting but tedious.

I want to like them more. But with my interest in the history of civilization, I still value the insight they provide to 18th Century life and the values and attitudes of the 18th Century reading public.

I was intrigued by the Gothic genre too. And when I heard about this book about a Catholic Monk that was so lusty, sexual, supernatural and violent as to shock the populace while selling well, I thought that was one I would have to read. I could handle a little over-the-top excess, that is the aspect I enjoyed most about the gothic horror story posing as a romance, Wuthering Heights.

It didn't live up to my hopes as the over-the-top aspects which I hoped would be so fun ended up being so overwritten they stopped being fun after a while. But to quote you Gem, "I'm glad I read it... now it's off my TBR list!" And it quenched a curiosity before it lingered too long. I did like it better than its more sedate reply The Italian

Lori, thanks for the clarification of the parentage. I knew the whole story of the unacceptable marriage and the escape to Cuba, but somehow I missed that there was a little boy who was kept at his grandfather’s. Then he would actually have been entitled to the title of Marquis de las Cisternas as the son of the eldest son. Strange that that aspect did not come up at the end. I then no the devil could have been a little more thorough in his explanations to Ambrosia.😉

I hated that Antonia died, but considering the morality of the time in which the story is set, there wasn't a great alternative available to the author. I agree that Agnes will surely live the rest of her life with PTSD, and who wouldn't?!? She survived horrors beyond imagining, including the death of her child. As for Ambrosio, he deserved the punishment he received. I'm not surprised that there would be accusations of blasphemy leveled at the novel. In this book, as well as in The Italian, the Catholic Church with its Inquisition came in for some heavy hits and is characterized as a bastion of superstition and repression. I look forward to our next Gothic read.

Brian E wrote: "I did like it better than its more sedate reply The Italian"

I loved The Italian. To me, the story did drag on a bit and some of what was going on seems implausible but I adored the language. She had a way with words that just grabbed me. (I think I've been under the influence of my literature teacher husband for too long, lol.)

Lori wrote: "They fled Spain and settled in Cuba, leaving behind their young son. The still-angry grandfather took the boy from Elvira's family, and claimed he died soon after. "

I missed this, not sure if it was because I listened to the book vs. reading it, but I missed it.