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Station Eleven
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Station Eleven - Parts 01-03 (April 2015)
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First page is always massively important for me. I generally get an immediate sense of how much I’m going to enjoy a novel from the author’s prose style and choice of descriptive detail. Station Eleven has a great first page. A stage production of King Lear - the continuity of high culture a theme perhaps? The fake snow is a great image as is the broken bird. And then the dramatic tension of a script falling apart, like the knell of an ominous bell. What’s not to like?
Mod
I also enjoyed the first page, and the first chapter overall. There is a sense of chaos and disorder which seems to be entirely unrelated to the disasters that are just around the corner. I also loved the image of the fake snow. It's been at least a decade since I last read King Lear, but I recall the theme of reality vs. appearance playing a large role throughout the play. Here, Jeevan thinks of the fake snow once he learns of the Georgian Flu, unable to separate Hua's warning to get out of town with the excitement of the evening he's just had. Kirsten references the snow several chapters later when she's trying to remember the way things used to be.
I'm normally take an author's world building very seriously, and worry about if the details make sense. And if I was going to look at Station Eleven that way, I'd have problems with the flue epidemic in this book. First, flu just isn't that lethal, the famous 1918 flu pandemic had a 2% lethality rate -- 98% is a very big leap indeed! (No historical disease has anywhere near that lethality.) Also, to speed of infection and the shortness of incubation period, and the speed of death as given in the book would make quarantine very effective.However, I'm not inclined to worry about it here, and I'll just take the plague as a given, because I don't think the details actually particularly matter to what I perceive as author's project in this book.
Hi Peter. I have the same hesitation. But world building is completely not of interest to St. John Mandel. She has said so in every interview I've heard her give. I think your willingness to set world building aside as a criterion for judging this book will give you an excellent chance of discovering the book on its own terms.
Violet wrote: "First page is always massively important for me. I generally get an immediate sense of how much I’m going to enjoy a novel from the author’s prose style and choice of descriptive detail. Station El..."Hello,Violet,
On your advice, I opened the book and began to read. Now I am trying to get rid of anything in the way of my curling up this book. I was just kvetching about not having a riveting read. Thank you for fixing that for me :-)
Mod
I agree that Mandel's interests were on the personal and social aspects of the story rather than the world building. But in a book with a created world, criticizing the places where the cracks are showing is completely legitimate, although by no means a reason to dismiss the entire book.
Poingu, do you have links to the interviews you mention? I've seen interviews where Mandel talks about some of the research she did and her efforts to make her world plausible, including research into pandemics. Although she readily admits that her concerns with the future took a back seat to other ideas, declaring that "world building is completely not of interest" to her would seem, frankly, rather snotty and dismissive on her part.
Hi Whitney. I am going to post further comments on the world building question, plus a link to one interview in particular, over on the "ok to post spoilers" thread. Any given reader's response to this novel seems to hinge very much on this world-building question, and possibly also relates to how much s/f one has read before, so I don't want to post too much here about it.
No problem Portia :)
I think Mandel's reluctance to world build does affect this novel's flowering, surfacing as cracks at times because the characters are imagined much more fully than their setting and conditions after the pandemic. I also think it's why some characters are much more successful than others. Interesting to discover she said world building wasn't of much interest to her and I agree with Whitney that it's a bit lazy if not snotty of her.
Violet wrote: "First page is always massively important for me. I generally get an immediate sense of how much I’m going to enjoy a novel from the author’s prose style and choice of descriptive detail. Station El..."Violet, I "audiobooked" the novel the first time. It was very well performed but now that I have the book in hand and see the words on the page I think that I didn't quite realize how exquisite the writing was before. I'm looking forward to experiencing the novel this time as words on a page.
Violet wrote: "I think Mandel's reluctance to world build does affect this novel's flowering, surfacing as cracks at times because the characters are imagined much more fully than their setting and conditions aft..."In addition to The Guardian artile that Poingu notes he possted on the Spoiler thread, I recommend reading the links that have been posted on the non-spoiler thread for a better sense of what the author thought she was writing.
In line with the discussion generated by the Jane from B.C.'s posting @ #119 on the Euphoria spoiler thread, I'd like to better understand why you think the "world building" would make the book better or why its lack affected your liking of the story.
I'm expecting to like this novel better second time round. All the hype had my expectations up way too high when i first read it. I didn't necessarily have a problem with the thinly imagined post apocalyptic world she created; my problem first time around was more about the slightly clumsy way she sometimes manoeuvred her characters to carry out plot functions, in particular Jeevan.
Violet wrote: "I'm expecting to like this novel better second time round. All the hype had my expectations up way too high when i first read it. I didn't necessarily have a problem with the thinly imagined post a..."I see we both got to 3 stars with it the first time around, but for different reasons.
Mod
Yep, I try not to let hype interfere with my reading, but it invariably creeps in. Especially in a quiet book such as this one. I agree to some extent about the character maneuvering as well, although I'll save any comments for the whole book thread since I can't remember what all came when.
Mod
I know this was directed at Violet, but I'll answer from my point of view. Imaging reading a romance novel called "Tuscan Holliday", and the author does a crappy job of presenting Tuscany. Is this a legitimate criticism? Yes. Does it mean the book is necessarily a bad romance novel? No. Would it be a better book if the writer had done a better job with the setting? Yes.
Linda wrote: " I'd like to better understand why you think the "world building" would make the book better or why its lack affected your liking of the story"I was completely fine with the jump from pandemic onset to twenty years post-pandemic. I actually found it refreshing that I didn't have to read about all the horrors in the immediate aftermath of the pandemic. (But maybe that is because I have been watching too much "Walking Dead" with my family and I am sick of strife and ugliness :o/)
just picked up my copy from the library today. Will start right now!
After the first chapter, I get the sense the fake snow says something. Jeevan notices every transition it makes, from the first fall of snowflakes, to its uncontrollable nature, to the point when it stops, to the stagehand sweeping it up into a glimmering pile, "a little mountain." Then, exiting the theatre, Jeevan is startled by real snow, which he regards as an "echo of the plastic translucencies that still clung to his jacket."Reality has been turned upside down. The fake snow is real, is a "mountain" to Jeevan, the real snow is just an echo that fades away.
I often feel the same way. I look at trees and fields and animals in an idyllic setting and see very general, unreal entities. I couldn't tell you the kind of tree it is, or the type of grass, or the species of bird. They seem like props on a stage, plastic or painted or positioned just so. I don't think twice about them. But an iPhone? I could take one apart, and tell you which part does what. And I think about where mine is every day. Is the difference a matter of importance? or relevance to me? or a conditioning received throughout development? I'm not sure, but I'll watch for what Mandel makes of it.
Mod
I was completely fine with the jump fr..."
I'm with you on this Jane. I haven't watched the "Walking Dead," other than the first episode, but that horrible aftermath you mention gets to be unbearable after it pops in movie after movie, show after show, book after book. Mandel throws in some humor here and there, which I really enjoy. There are the little snippets of foreboding here and there, such as the bartender who would outlast them all (but would die in three weeks), and a few funny remarks about how the Traveling Symphony makes ends meet, such as how the horse only had half a tail "because the first cello had just restrung his bow last week."
Gabriel - love your reflection on the fake snow and how it relates to your own experience. It will be interesting to see what else this book has in store for us.
Mod
Looking back at the parts I've read so far, I find I'm liking the story more and more. There are pieces that almost feel too easy - the zombocalypse has been told so many times at this point that Mandel doesn't have to throw in too much effort to create that world. However, I love how the role of art, whether it's Miranda creating the pieces of Station Eleven or the Traveling Symphony performing, plays into the story.
One of my favorite parts so far was when the Symphony rehearsed A Midsummer Night's Dream. The narrator (adopting Kirsten's view?) states that the play was written in 1592, the year London's theaters reopened after two seasons of plague. Loved this: "Plague closed the theaters again and again, death flickering over the landscape. And now in a twilight once more lit by candles, the age of electricity having come and gone, Titania turns to face her fairy king." This leads us to their motto, "Because survival is insufficient."
Whitney wrote Imagine reading a romance novel called "Tuscan Holliday", and the author does a crappy job of presenting Tuscany. Is this a legitimate criticism?That's weird as i was going to say imagine if a novel was set in Italy and the author didn't bother to research Italy at all so every description was shadowy and generic...
Regarding Peter's observation about the flu pandemic I'd like to add that the phone call from Hua, the medic, to Jeevan isn't very good writing. It's an information dump and not a very convincing one at that. And after two pages of Hua's urgent warning Handel says, "It occurred to Jeevan that there might not be much time." That, to me, is high school writing! It's almost funny in its prosaic pointing out of the obvious and already copiously stated.
I'm noticing Mandel's prose changes according to what and who she's writing about. It can be very pedestrian, verging on dull when she's creating the backstory of the pandemic and post pandemic world but a lot richer and inspired when she's writing about character moments she clearly has a much fuller imaginative grasp of, most notably Miranda and Kirsten. So, in that sense, I would say yes, it is a flaw that she wasn't interested in world building because if you don't imagine something you won't have much vitality or vision when you come to write about it and the writing itself will be a bit lacklustre.
Enjoying this now. I was concerned after the first part that it felt like an average thriller. For example the convenience of Jeevan having his best and only friend being the doctor at the centre of the epidemic � super-coincidence. The point of change for me came with the short chapter 8 and the introduction of the comics � so there’s another story going on here.And I’m seeing a lot about the longevity/ survival of art � including the comics, Shakespeare plays, and the music. And Elizabeth Colton’s suggestion about the graphic novels /comics that “the point is that it exists in the world�.
I’ve not been worried about the how realistic the pandemic is. I’ve found now that I simply accept it as a device for getting from A to B. To indicate a cataclysmic event and show what survives the fall, and I dare say who and what survives it.
Jeevan looks like he’s an odd Shakespearean character that keeps turning up in different guises. He seems to relishes a low profile and is always being dismissed/ignored but will then turn up again in unexpected places. I wait to see.
Good observation, Jim about Jeevan being like an itinerant Shakespeare character. Agree about the comic too. That was my favourite part of the novel the first time i read it.
I am still ruminating over Linda, Terry, and others comments about incorporating presumptions of intent into reactions to the texts we read. Had an interesting example described in my writing class this week of an audience member (angrily) accusing a speaking (in an auditorium setting) poet of "lying" in her moving poem about helping a daughter learning to ride a bike when the poet revealed that she had no daughter. All the fine but important distinctions between our personal reactions to certain conditions and what might have been the "intent" of another in creating/writing those conditions -- to which can we legitimately speak with what qualifiers? Certainly it seems to me that we have the right to assert salt helps sell more potato chips and some of us perceive the food industry uses certain tastes to promote consumption of its products. Yet that is a different statement than the one that salt and sweet stimulate hunger. Certainly it seems to me that we can state that we felt a certain way in response to particular uses or lacks of use of styles, words, details, characterization, .... Yet I do feel as legitimate L&T's seeming reservations about when and how we discuss "intent."
Intriguing that the Prophet's dog has the same name as the dog in the comic. Good touch bringing the comic to life like that.
Mod
The "future" part of the story has many interesting aspects. The musicians going by their instrument names (e.g., third guitar) rather than real names (at least most of the time) was a nice touch. At first I thought it might be a little depersonalizing. Then I realized that these labels were more like titles, or recognition of where one fit. Very much, "you are what you do," but also with a hint of "you have value because of what you do."
I'm enjoying the book very much, and hope to have more time to read this weekend.
Agree Casceil. Miranda is a great character. I love the way Mandel has evoked her loneliness and how the comic is like a kind of prayer book of her secret life. Only complaint I have so far is that there are a lot of characters in the orchestra and it's hard to keep track of 'em all.
I heard Mandrel say in an interview that Miranda was her favourite character in the book.
Only complaint I have so far is that there are a lot of characters in the orchestra and it's hard to keep track of 'em all.
Violet, maybe that's why most of the orchestra characters as known by their position and instrument instead of name?
In re: Miranda. Like the name Amanda ( able to be loved), Miranda means to be able to be amazed[future passive participle -gerundive]Which reader took two years of Latin :P?
Peter, except that makes 'em even harder to distinguish! But yep, I think you're right. Probably she initially named them all and then saw just how many names she was expecting readers to remember and identify.Jane, you can tell Miranda was Mandel's favourite character. She's probably the closest to Mandel herself, the creator. Everyone else in the novel is an interpreter.
I love Miranda. And such an interesting point about everyone else being an interpreter. Only Miranda is a creator.
I think the idea of the orchestra members taking the names of their instruments to be both hilarious and a little sad. A loss of personal identity in this new world. Not necessarily a bad thing but still sad to me.
Ben wrote: "I'm noticing Mandel's prose changes according to what and who she's writing about. It can be very pedestrian, verging on dull when she's creating the backstory of the pandemic and post pandemic wor..."Good point. That may be another reason why I didn't mind that she hasn't spent much time on it. Like Jane from BC, I was also fine with the book skipping ahead 20 years past the worst of the happenings. I've read it before...skipping it makes the book different. Plus it helps give it a mysterious feel that I am kind of enjoying. I like how the book is skipping around, slowly revealing connections between people and objects.
Peter wrote: "Only complaint I have so far is that there are a lot of characters in the orchestra and it's hard to keep track of 'em all.
Violet, maybe that's why most of the orchestra characters as known by their position and instrument instead of name?
I kind of assumed that the less important characters didn't have names and the ones we need to keep track of do.
Mod
I don't know music well enough to explore this question, but perhaps some of you can comment on whether Mandel did any parallels/metaphors between the orchestral roles and the human roles some of the various members of the symphony had. Although there are certainly not necessarily parallels in real life examples, I am wondering if Mandel did any literary playing/plotting, especially since she let the instruments stand for names.
Mod
p 46: "...there weren't actually seven guitars in the Symphony, but the guitarists had a tradition of not changing their numbers when another guitarist died or left, so that currently the Symphony roster included guitars four, seven, and eight, with the location of the sixth presently in question... "
And when the symphony starts to depart and is asked whether they have permission to leave the town, the boy set on watch duty asks: "What's your name?" and the conductor says: "People call me the conductor... It's the only name I use." So you get this increasing sense of identity/meaning only in relation to one's role within the group.
Isn't Miranda a character in the Tempest? (also Shakespeare). I'm assuming that's where the name comes from.I like to jump into a novel knowing virtually nothing about it, so I don't read jacket covers, so I had no idea this was a post-apocalyptic story until the line about everyone in the bar being dead within three weeks. That was a fun jolt for me and completely changed the flow of the story, then it jumped again when I realized she wasn't taking us through the details of the collapse itself, but right into the aftermath. Yes, the conversation with Jeevan and Hua was a bit jilted (how dense can Jeevan be?) but the rest of the buildup was done well, I think.
Here's a quick summary of what we've encountered so far (I've added a spoiler tag for anyone who joins before reading all three sections):
(view spoiler)[ Part I: The Theater
Time: Present/when the Georgian Flu strikes/Arthur Leander's death in middle of performance
Characters: Jeevan (paramedic in training, bar tender, former paparrazo)
Kirsten (8 year old who appears in King Lear and sees Arthur die)
Hua (Jeevan's friend who works in an ER, the one to tell Jeevan that this epidemic is the real thing)
Miranda (Arthur's first wife, currently in Malaysia - does her presence in the story automatically make anyone else think of Sheakespeare's Tempest?)
Part Two: A Midsummer Night's Dream
Time: Twenty years "after travel ended"/joining the Traveling Symphony/discovery of Station Eleven
Characters, places, and other things of note: Kirsten (the actress from Part I, now member of Traveling Symphony)
Dieter (plays the part of Lear "although he wasn't really old enough"
Intro to Station Eleven (mysterious comic, features a white dog named Luli)
Charlie and the Sixth Guitarist (not actually present, former members of the symphony who stayed in a town to have a baby two years ago)
The Prophet (thinks everyone who's left behind is there for a reason, and he's looking for a new bride, owner of a white dog named Luli)
Part Three: I Prefer You With a Crown
Time: Approximately 14 years before the flue/15 years after flu/1year before the flu
Characters and other pieces: Arthur (an up and coming actor)
Miranda/"the girl" (teenager from Arthur's "home town," former girlfriend of Pablo, wife, then ex-wife of Arthur, owner of a white dog named Luli, and author of Station Eleven
Clark (Arthur's best friend, not so impressed with Arthur as he ages)
Elizabeth Colton (actress, Miranda's rival, Arthur's second wife and mother of his only son)
Jeevan (paparrazo waiting outside Arthur and Miranda's home)
Diallo (survivor who wants to capture a history of everything that's happened since the flu, does this by interviewing Kirsten)
(hide spoiler)]