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I hope that the Professor will forgive me for adding another topic, but I would be remiss if I didn't say something about the broader "Incensepunk" movement in science fiction.

At heart, we are trying to return sci fi to its specultive, metaphysical roots. We want to tell universal stories that incorporate one of the most important and ubiquitous aspects of human life: religion.

For decades now, sci fi has either made "religion" the bad guy or (worse, imo) pretended that it does not exist. How can you tell authentic stories about the future while ignoring one of the biggest factors that will shape the future?

The result has been a kind of "monomyth" of nihilistic materialism, one that frankly is not even supported by the best modern science. In other words--science fiction writers are doing a poor job of writing about both science AND the future.

Incensepunk differs from "Christian or Catholic Sci Fi" in some important ways. For one, we are open to perspectives from other faiths. For another, we eschew overt preaching as a precondition. There is enough preaching from all corners these days (particularly, I would say, from atheists). We portray realistic struggles with faith and doubt, sin and redemption. We do not pit religious groups against each other or pit the religious against the irreligious.

The movement is small but growing. For those interested, here are some of the major influences as well as some authors writing today:

Gene Wolfe - Book of the New Sun
Walter Miller, Jr. - A Canticle for Leibowitz
Dan Simmons - Hyperion (with caveats!)
Robert Hugh Benson
Christopher Ruocchio
Yuval Kordov
Declan Finn
Charles Williams
CS Lewis (though more overtly evangelical than we tend to be)
RA Lafferty
James Blish
Cordwainer Smith
Brian Niemeir
Scott Alexander (esp. Unsong)
Matthew Schmidt

I am SURE that I am leaving some people off. If you know of others, please post them here!

John C Wright

I'd also add Karina Fabian.

Andrew wrote: "I hope that the Professor will forgive me for adding another topic, but I would be remiss if I didn't say something about the broader "Incensepunk" movement in science fiction..."

No problem. As the author of the book being discussed, of course you can add new discussion questions.

I wonder where you would classify my own novels, whether religious sci-fi or Incensepunk. I don't think they preach, but religion is an influence, especially in my Solar System series: /series/2495... (all four have been translated into English).

I need to read your novels, Professor! But based on their descriptions--and on your own background as a scientist--I strongly suspect that they are Incensepunk or Incensepunk-adjacent.

Michael O'Brien's Voyage to Alpha Centauri is another one.
Perhaps also Cy Kellet's Ad Limina.

I would say that another key feature of Incensepunk is that it is interested in theology---in the "why?" of it all. It is, in some ways, an argument with the world.

Would Bujold's world of the Five Gods series count here? It's fantasy, not sci-fi. But it has an interesting religion and the themes of sin and redemption.

I haven't read it, Mariangel. But I've a lot of people ask me about Bujold---so I'm guessing there is a strong incensepunk vein in her work.

It's interesting also how perceptions and boundaries of a sub-genre change over time.

Back in my day, people used to argue over whether a book was "cyberpunk" or not. I'm guessing a lot of those arguments would be irrelevant today, as the genre both expanded and became more defined.

If Incensepunk is successful, it will do the same!

how could i have left out MR Leonard's new book, Pilgrims!!!

It has been selling really well from what i can tell.

The professor's novels are avaibable into english 😊😁. Excellent authors. Although it is not in english i add to my friend Jaime Blanch Queral.

Include Mr. Gillsmith to Fred Saberhagen, Murray Leinster and Anthony Boucher.

Manuel wrote: "As the author of the book being discussed, of course you can add new discussion questions."

I would go further and say that any member of the group can add a discussion topic if they feel something is not being addressed. The Moderators can always delete it if we feel it goes too far astray.

Andrew wrote: "We do not pit religious groups against each other or pit the religious against the irreligious."

The history of humanity is one of conflict, and differences in religion (including an insistence on its absence) have repeatedly been drivers or at least covers for such conflict. If incensepunk explicitly excludes those conflicts, doesn't it become as flawed a portrayal of humanity as the existing monomyth?

Otherwise I would suggest adding Larry Correia's Saga of the Forgotten Warrior, but that is driven by the conflict between believers and unbelievers (though clearly not Christian belief).

I would like to add to this list Ann Margaret Lewis Also Jerry Pournelle and, also, this writer I have recently met Donald Jacob Uitvlugt

Another writer I recommend is Michael Flynn and, if you like, Protestants, Karen Hancock and, Kathy Tyers.
By the way, I'm now reading a book called Pope Joan by Donna Woolfolk Cross is one of the worst books I've read in recent years, and I thought it would take me a while to find something worse than the Marquis de Sade anti-calicissimo and radical feminism in the Middle Ages. I just want to finish it now to put this garbage in its place.

John wrote: "Andrew wrote: "We do not pit religious groups against each other or pit the religious against the irreligious."

The history of humanity is one of conflict, and differences in religion (including a..."

I should have beem clearer.

There is conflict. Conflict is part of our reality, as you said.

What we try to avoid is portraying "the other side" as evil and framing everything in black and white morality.

One issue i have with, say, a lot of Protestant sci fi is that it tends to frame plots as "good guys" (believers) versus "bad guys" (evil atheists).

Fonch wrote: "Another writer I recommend is Michael Flynn and, if you like, Protestants, Karen Hancock and, Kathy Tyers.
By the way, I'm now reading a book called [..."

Pope Joan looks unreadable. I cant believe you're subjecting yourself to thst voluntarily!

Michael Flynn is awesome!

Fonch wrote: "I would like to add to this list Ann Margaret Lewis Also Jerry Pournelle and, also, this writer I have recently met Donald Jacob Uitvlugt"

Great additions!

I've posted links to this discussion on X. I wish some of thrse other writers would join us here.

Andrew wrote: "Fonch wrote: "Another writer I recommend is Michael Flynn and, if you like, Protestants, Karen Hancock and, Kathy Tyers.
By the way, I'm now reading a..."

The theme was interesting, but seeing the way in which the author has written it, ideology prevails over the context of the time. The book is total misandric and I'm already reading it to give it a suspense like a cathedral when it was big. That you need it more than breathing, eating, and sleeping.

Andrew wrote: "Fonch wrote: "Another writer I recommend is Michael Flynn and, if you like, Protestants, Karen Hancock and, Kathy Tyers.
By the way, I'm now reading a..."

I didn't read "The da Vinci Code" for pleasure either ;-). Michael Flynn was recommended to me by my friend Julie Davis to whom she sent hugs from here. PS.Let's add Sandra Miesel to the list

Pity. some of them are friends of mine on Facebook, if you want I would have introduced them to you. Donald Jacob Uitvlugt recently followed me on twitter. I don't know if we follow each other on twitter by the way?

I'm not on facebook, but my twitter handle is @andrewgillsmith

Andrew wrote: "I'm not on facebook, but my twitter handle is @andrewgillsmith"

Now following

I'm not on facebook nor on twitter, The only social networks I'm a member of, are ŷ������, LinkedIn, ResearchGate and Academia.

Okey, maybe I'm out of place. But if this is a close community, opinions are welcome, right?

I like it when all the knowledge some of you guys have can be shared. I feel it push me to go deeper, read more, just know there is more out there to learn. It feels pleasant.

I dislike tremendously when trashing other people's work occurs.
1. This group is far from perfect; we are all learning I want to think. Ones more than others.
2. Some authors don´t necessarily share the same point of view of this group.
3. Some of us, do like to read this kind of fantasy books and certainly don't think of them as a rule of life but as an entertainment.

Well, sorry, I felt I had to express myself.

Andrew wrote: "I hope that the Professor will forgive me for adding another topic, but I would be remiss if I didn't say something about the broader "Incensepunk" movement in science fiction.

At heart, we are tr..."

What are the caveats on Hyperion? I didn't read it, but people say Simmons is an agnostic.

Simmons is a lapsed Catholic. His portrayal of the church begins well enough then falls into the worst sort of modern, tropey, "they're evil and don't even believe what they preach" nonsense."

Therr is also a strong transhumanist theme that blossoms in the later books.

Brilliant writer though. I still love Hyperion and Fall of Hyperion.

Yesterday i followed to Mr. Gillsmith. It is a pity that he is not in Facebook i would have introduced some friends.
Jaime spoke me really good of Hyperion. Excuseme for not replying today i wanted to conclude with "Pope Joan".

I have heard something about the Cormac's McCarthy last novel. I do not know if he might enter in this list.

In my last video i spoke about incensepunk and about the discussion of Our Lady of Artilects i pass in case you wanted to watch it PS. The subtitles can be in english

Fonch wrote: "I have heard something about the Cormac's McCarthy last novel. I do not know if he might enter in this list."

Are you referring to The Road?

No i am referring to "The Passenger / Stella Maris" . I forgot saying the name of Peko Gaskovski.

Ah! I have talked with Peko. That book is on my TBR.

I have to say---I love Cormac McCarthy as a writer. I don't know how his prose comes across in Spanish, but in English it is almost liturgical. No one in the last 30 years can match his sense of rhythm and flow.

The frustrating thing is, I loathe his ideas. He seems to suggest that the world is meaningless....except for the very real presence of evil. It makes for excellent literary grist, but it is missing any sense of hope or transcendence.

Even evil loses its sting if there is no good to set against it.

Andrew wrote: "The frustrating thing is, I loathe his ideas. He seems to suggest that the world is meaningless....except for the very real presence of evil. It makes for excellent literary grist, but it is missing any sense of hope or transcendence.

Even evil loses its sting if there is no good to set against it."

I'd say this is also applicable to what I've read by George R. R. Martin.

Andrew wrote: "I have to say---I love Cormac McCarthy as a writer. I don't know how his prose comes across in Spanish, but in English it is almost liturgical. No one in the last 30 years can match his sense of rh..."

The truth is that I have not read it although it has been highly recommended to me. I am pessimistic, but it did not reach that degree of despair. I prefer to lean towards the Christian existentialism of Søren Kierkegaard, August Strindberg, Miguel de Unamuno, Gabriel Marcel and Mika Waltari(especially the latter). More fascinating (although I don't like the writer) is Georges Bernanos' idea that good prevails, even if evil seems to have everything to gain.

I believe that in the case of George R.R. Martin, as Professor Manuel Alfonseca says, two things must be distinguished. One is that a person may believe in the omnipotence of evil out of pessimism, and others may wallow in evil itself. I believe that George R.R. Martin belongs to this category like most authors of low fantasy or grimdark.

Fonch wrote: "Andrew wrote: "I have to say---I love Cormac McCarthy as a writer. I don't know how his prose comes across in Spanish, but in English it is almost liturgical. No one in the last 30 years can match ..."

I can't speak about Christian existentialism, but I was taught you can't be a Thomist without being joyful, at least in principle. I try to live it and would like to say I left my old pessimism behind, but the truth is, the more you read, the more you struggle against sadness. Maybe it's just our way of processing reality. We start from innocence and then become scandalised by the real world, sometimes through trauma. But the endpoint seems to be accepting real people and things as God created them. Tolkien seemed to talk about this in his essay on fairy tales.

It seems some authors, especially those of the grimdark genre, rarely reach that endpoint. But some of them may be helpful in the process? It seems so.

That's why what resonated with me the most in the sequel to "Our Lady of the Artilects" was Serafian's arc. He was destroyed and reconstructed and had to go through the Conclave and know the Cardinals, and learn that the highest in the Church, sometimes, are the farthest from perfection. And, while in the first book he passed through a crisis of faith, at the end of the second, he faces a kind of crisis of identity. He went from crisis to crisis, even at maturity. It's haunting.

I share this interesting video of the youtuber Gran Patriarca although it is into spanish can put subtitles in english. On monday i will reply to Emmanuel. The discussion is excellent

If this is not appropriate, please tell me and I will delete the post.

I would be most grateful if anyone would be willing to vote for Our Lady of the Artilects on this list of Catholic Science Fiction books:

/list/show/4...

It may be a sensitive topic, but I saw that Mr. Gillsmith gave Mons. Benson's "Lord of the World" only three stars. I did the same. I think it's a revolutionary work, definitely incensepunk, and I liked the themes and characters, but found it lacking in overall execution. What are your thoughts about the book?

I meant no disrespect to Mons. Benson. Perhaps I should have given it four stars.

It isnt my cup of tea. A bit too black and white for my tastes.

I will write about Benson tomorrow 🤔.

Fonch wrote: "I will write about Benson tomorrow 🤔."

Looking forward to it!

I regret having made you wait, in this case my opinion is closer to Emmanuel, if we look at the dystopian plane we are not facing an original novel, but reading it in the times of Vatican II where there is hardly any talk of hell and the Parousia has been eliminated, it is evident that the novel "The Lord of World" impresses. It happened to me when, like the Catholics of Robert Hugh Benson's time, it seemed too hopeless for its time. Benson has an undeniable success and it is the historian's addiction to explain how the situation described in the novel has come about. Despite the fact that the writing is rudimentary (at least the translation) Benson is very skilful at not complicating himself with the plots. It has exceptional supporting actors, particularly I love Mabel Brandt and, for the time, it has an amazing predictive capacity with volores. (they are not the Wright brothers' planes), and above all the destruction of cities and the issue of euthanasia. The society he described is modeled on our emotivist and is incapable of accepting any setbacks or difficulties. In the intrigue of the similarity between Felsenburgh and Percy Franklin, it anticipates Charles Chaplin's film of the Great Dictator, but for me its greatest success has undoubtedly been the description of the antichrist. He does not make the mistake of Hugo Wast, of Michael D. O'Brien or, of my Jorge Sáez Criado who tend to show the antichrist as a psychopath and a monster. Let's see it is, but Benson's merit is in making us believe that it is not. We don't see Felsenburgh from the writer's point of view, but from the perspective of the characters in the novel, and that's how we have to see him as someone who seems to be the solution to all evils, showing his evil at the end. The antichrist should not be seen as a dictator in the style of Adolf Hitler or Joseph Stalin. That approach, as Juan Manuel de Prada indicates, has been overcome. The antichrist must be seen as someone who will try to resemble Jesus Christ, but who will be his opposite. The devil to mock God what he does is imitate him and a defective version of his work. That is why I find Robert Hugh Benson's work absolutely extraordinary. Anyway, the one I love is his opposite of "The Dawn of All" where Benson describes a world governed by the Catholic Church. The Kingdom of a Thousand Years. On Friday I wrote to the greatest specialist on Robert Hugh Benson in Spain, Sergio Gómez Moyano, and asked him about one of the books of the Catholic Book Club, for which I will most presumably vote in the next election, due to my interest in the subject. He also became a member of my Youtube channel. PD. Another interesting theme is the description of the relations between Islam and Christianity in this novel. When the antichrist comes, I believe that he will try to deceive the Jews and the Muslims by making some believe that he is the Messiah and others that he is Mahdi.

By the way, another who has a parousistic story camouflaged is C.S. Lewis, specifically with the last novel of the Chronicles of Narnia, "The Last Battle". In this novel Lewis has the great success of making the antichrist the monkey as a way of parodying the work of the devil.

Andrew wrote: "If this is not appropriate, please tell me and I will delete the post.

I would be most grateful if anyone would be willing to vote for Our Lady of the Artilects on this list of Catholic Science Fi..."

I just voted for him from my mobile phone, I was not allowed to do it.

Fonch wrote: "I regret having made you wait, in this case my opinion is closer to Emmanuel, if we look at the dystopian plane we are not facing an original novel, but reading it in the times of Vatican II where ..."

For me, the most interesting part of "Lord of the World" was the depiction of Rome, considering Mons. Benson wrote while the Pope was still the prisoner of the Vatican. I think Fonch, being a historian, could speak about this topic better than I can, but I always thought it would be a capital diplomatic mistake if the Church gave up her lands to keep only Rome. There would be no other walls against the violence of the State, and the novel shows that.

Interestingly, there's another nuking of the Vatican in a more recent novel, but I can't give spoilers. I just hope it won't become a trend in Catholic fiction! xD

Tomorrow i will reply your post Emmanuel.