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Over in another group I belong to, we have a combined Lewis-Chesterton thread, which enjoyed lively discussion for awhile. However, it was taken over and ruined by a pair of "New Atheist" trolls (those still taking part mostly try to ignore them and post around them, but it's difficult). Since a couple of the other active participants there are also members of this group, I thought a new thread posted here, in a more proactively moderated setting, might be a welcome new forum for discussion. Before I leave on Monday for a week's vacation, I'll try to start a Chesterton thread, too --unless anyone beats me to it!

Thanks, Werner, for starting this thread. I haven't read enough Lewis to discuss him (yet). I'm waiting for you to read Orthodoxy and tell me what you think. I have to be honest -- it was a little hard for me to follow at times, although I do think I understood the spirit of his explanation. The troll got it right that the book is part of a larger discussion between Chesterton and some of his contemporaries and as such is perhaps less a piece of persuasion than a heated explanation of his own journey. I had gotten his Everlasting Man to read, which is longer and maybe intended as persuasion, but I gave it away as a gift before I could read it myself.

LeAnn, I checked out Orthodoxy from the BC library today. I expect to finish the book I'm reading now over the weekend, but we'll be taking off on vacation on Monday, so my regular reading will be in abeyance for about a week. But I'll review it as soon as I get it finished (I like to review newly-read books right away, while they're fresh in my mind!).

Enjoy your vacation.

Thanks, LeAnn!

I just finished rereading The Screwtape Letters this week and forgot how interesting I think it is. I was surprised to find a comment in the book by Lewis saying that that book brought him the least joy he's had writing. I had never considered the sorrow and emotions that would come having to write from the perspective of evil, against God.

On another note, in rereading some of his works and seeing him quoted in books (namely Joseph Great Lives Series: Volume 3 by Charles R. Swindoll, it has been clear how much he truly was influenced by George MacDonald.

Yes --in one of the essays collected in the posthumous anthology Of Other Worlds: Essays and Stories (I forget which one, and don't have my copy of the book here at home; it's at the office) Lewis mentions the influence MacDonald had on him.

Hi all. I see we haven't said much here since last year. I'd be interested in thoughts on some of Lewis's other writings.

For example, have we read the Space Trilogy, Out of the Silent Planet, Perelandra, and That Hideous Strength. Of the three do you have a favorite?
If you have a favorite, can you say why?

Just a conversation starter.

I've read all three of these, and liked them all; but they each have distinct characteristics and strengths of their own. I'd have to say that I probably like That Hideous Strength the best, because I have strong socio-political views along the same lines that underlie Lewis' message here --namely, distrust of elitist social engineering devoid of moral restraints-- and it's particularly satisfying to me to see the minions of that approach get their comeuppance.

I'll see if anyone else comments first before I put in my .02 worth...I asked the question. LOL

I wish I could join the conversation, Mike, but I've only read The Screwtape Letters.

I love that book, it was I believe Lewis's first big seller. I'd say my favorite fiction by him is The Great Divorce, it's also allegorical (should I say of course? LOL). I'd recommend it as well as the Space Trilogy (I know, we all have huge "to be read" lists, but fit them in when you can :) ). Anyway, not too late (LOL).

The book I'm reading now -- The Jesuit Guide to Almost Everything: A Spirituality for Real Life mentions C.S. Lewis's Surprised by Joy. Has anyone heard of it?

How often do you think allegory is used as a genre these days? I searched the chapter I was reading because Fr. Martin mentions The Sparrow as an allegorical novel, but I couldn't find his reference. Does anyone recognize this novel? It's also science fiction of a sort.

LeAnn, I have heard of Surprised By Joy, but haven't read it. I know that it's Lewis' spiritual autobiography (we have it here at the library where I work).

I've also heard of The Sparrow, which is SF; but from what I've read about it, I doubt that it's a full-blown allegory. Many people today misuse that term to refer to any book that has significant symbolical features!

Actually, Werner, I'd love to learn more about your understanding of allegory and whether writers really use it today. When I was trying to describe my own novel and some of its imagery and symbolism, I toyed with whether this term applied or not. I decided against it, partly because I hadn't set out in a very conscious fashion to write an allegory, and partly because I feared that I didn't actually have a good grasp of its definition. However, last fall, when I visited the creative writing class at my alma mater, the instructor -- who'd read my novel -- threw that term out.

I have Surprised by Joy on my shelf. It's one of those I've been meaning to get to for years but since I have it, others keep getting moved ahead of it.

I read The Sparrow and it's sequel Children of God several years ago and I wouldn't call them allegorical. They are more philosophical in that they attempt to explore religious themes in a science fiction setting. I'd say more but to do so would almost have to include some major spoilers and I don't want to do that if you plan to read them as they are novels.

I reviewed them if you're interested, if not feel free to ignore. :
http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...

http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...

LeAnn, a true allegory is a narrative in which every significant feature of the story has a double, symbolic meaning. Bunyan's The Pilgrim's Progress (and Hawthorne's great riff on it, "The Celestial Railroad") are good examples, as is Spenser's The Faerie Queen. It was more popular in early literature than it is today, partly because it's hard to write it well, and also because it obviously has a didactic purpose, and modern critics abhor anything didactic. (It can also sometimes be a challenge to decode all of the symbols --and many modern readers don't really like challenges!) But Orwell's Animal Farm is a good modern example.

Mike, I may read them. I read some reviews at Amazon -- but I'll take a look at your reviews here. I will weight your opinion very highly in considering them.

Werner, of course I remembered The Pilgrim's Progress as an allegory, though my memory of it is rather vague along with my memory of the parts of The Faerie Queen I read in college. I haven't read "The Celestial Railroad." Is it that allegory needs clear naming, defined roles, and an obvious and simple storyline? After all, I would argue that modern literary novels teach certain lessons, even if they're not supposed to be didactic.

I agree that many modern readers don't like challenges. Many also don't like stories that build slowly or contain description or events that don't directly propel the narrative. If I understand allegory correctly, it would be perfect for modern readers -- if they wanted to read for instruction. I suspect most people read for escape or entertainment, rather than understanding the human condition. Maybe self-improvement books now fill the role of allegory?

Mike,

I read your reviews. These must be tough books to discuss, but now I think I'll read at least The Sparrow.

Yes, LeAnn, I'd say that, for instance, what the writers of a lot of modern Christian self-improvement books are doing is the same thing that Bunyan was trying to do with Christian's journey to the Celestial City. (Bunyan just did it more vividly and memorably. :-) )

Actually, "clear naming, defined roles, and an obvious and simple storyline" isn't integral to allegory --though that description clearly fits The Pilgrim's Progress, and allegory with these characteristics is much easier to understand. But none of those characteristics describes The Faerie Queen; the knights, there, for example, are recognized by critics to represent the cardinal virtues, but they aren't obviously named after them.

ALL literature conveys messages, whether it does so intentionally or not --the worldview of the author always comes through. I think modern critics would say that, of course, a proper "literary" novel should reflect the worldview of All Right-Thinking People (that is, a stance of bored nihilism and a view of life as meaningless); but they would say that this should be an effortless by-product of the writing. Consciously setting out to deliberately teach this message to the Great Unwashed might be seen as a necessary service to "enlightenment and progress" that somebody has to do, but it seems to be viewed as a rather dirty job below the level of real "literary" fiction, written for the "elite" among us.

Werner wrote: "I think modern critics would say that, of course, a proper "literary" novel should reflect the worldview of All Right-Thinking People (that is, a stance of bored nihilism and a view of life as meaningless); but they would say that this should be an effortless by-product of the writing. Consciously setting out to deliberately teach this message to the Great Unwashed might be seen as a necessary service to "enlightenment and progress" that somebody has to do, but it seems to be viewed as a rather dirty job below the level of real "literary" fiction, written for the "elite" among us.

That's why I don't like a lot of literary fiction. I actually stopped reading almost anything after college because I'd stopped reading popular/genre fiction and reading literary fiction left me cold and depressed. Now I'm picking my way around, looking for stories and authors.

Often LeAnn the titles chosen and the point of view of a professor can effect that. I had a lit. professor who could find a negative interpretation of just about anything I think. We struck sparks often. My daughter left school thinking she hated Dickens. Now she knows otherwise (though she's never gotten over what was done to Great Expectations, she still hates it LOL).

The two Russell novels are a little tough to discuss if you don't want to give anything away as a spoiler. I suppose I could have said they were "first contact" novels, but the what is discovered and it's implications are part of what I don't want to tip. It's a fairly original handling.

It's not however as I said allegorical.. It's more application of Christian ideas, ideals, and actions.

It's probably better to approach these books with a fresh mind. The minister, one other person and I read these books as part of a discussion group we had started. I believe that unless you dislike the first book it will lead into the second as a logical extension of the story... but that's just me.

I was just discussing this with my husband. He thinks The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe is an allegory that many readers can read without understanding the Christian symbolism. The Pilgrim's Progress on the other hand is an obvious allegory.

Werner, I haven't read Animal Farm, but my husband described it as both allegory and satire and said that it's a commentary rather than something intended to teach. Perhaps he's splitting hairs or broadening the definition of didactics, but I can't comment given that I haven't read it.

Perhaps allegory, even if it's a challenge to decode and understand on a deeper level, is still too simple and neat. I used a lot of symbolism in my novel and wanted to bring the reader to a moral understanding, but I don't think I could achieve your description of every significant feature having a double, symbolic meaning.

Mike, when I say "literary" fiction, I should have prefaced that with "contemporary." Maybe it's my age or my background (I'm from the Midwest), but I mostly had instructors who taught Dickens and older classics in a positive way. The only contemporary literature that I studied in college came in women's lit (although not all of that was contemporary). There was a point to that class, a point that I was conflicted about. I still remember reading Kate Chopin's Awakening and responding to it very differently than my effusive professor did. (It stayed with me enough that I worked a reference to it into my novel -- kind of my response to the professor and the class, if you will.)

Okay, so after I read The Sparrow, I may want to discuss it with you.

I would say that The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe has some allegorical features, without being a full-blown allegory. Not every element in the book has a symbolic referent --only a few key ones. As you indicated, writing at the former level of complete allegory is really hard to achieve.

Whether Animal Farm is meant to "teach," I guess, depends on the definition of "teach;" maybe "drive home a message the readers need to hear" would peg it more accurately. The message, of course, is that Stalin betrayed the Russian Revolution, and that the state he built was all about vicious, self-serving tyranny. That was a very needed message at a time when hard-Left intellectuals in the West were burning incense at his shrine (and, heaven help us, some of them still are!).

......and it was impossible to tell the difference in the men and pigs....

I read that Tolkien felt (and told Lewis) that the allegorical elements of the Narnia books were to "overt and obvious".

Mike (the Paladin) wrote: "I read that Tolkien felt (and told Lewis) that the allegorical elements of the Narnia books were to "overt and obvious"."

I read that too. When I asked my husband if he thought it were accurate to say that my own novel had "allegorical elements," he said that unless it was truly an allegory, those elements remained symbols only.

However, I keep returning to the comment made by the creative writing prof, who by his own admission to me afterwards, is a non-believer (I don't recall how he worded it, but he didn't call himself an atheist). Given that I believe most creative writing academics are exactly what you, Werner, describe, I was rather struck (and pleased) that he acknowledged that I'd achieved the level of art in my story. I suspected he didn't agree, but he respected it.

Perhaps the reason allegory isn't much employed these days has more to do with All-Right-Thinking People having staked out literary endeavors as their province than its difficulty -- after all, there are some brilliant people writing.

I just noticed a post in another group about Phillip Pullman's The Golden Compass, which I read and didn't care for because I thought 1) the story wasn't that good -- I could tell he didn't really like any of his characters and 2) he seemed to have an ax to grind. I didn't know it at the time, but I later read about the series being an answer to Lewis's Narnia and a condemnation of the Catholic Church in particular. I suppose Pullman's series isn't strictly allegorical either, and yet there's that element of didactics to the symbolism that you mention.

What do you think? Should there be another category, another way to describe symbolic elements that an author consciously uses to teach versus symbolism employed in a less instructive manner because it's somehow self-evident to the enlightened? (I believe all writers use symbolism consciously and unconsciously.)

Does this make sense? It seems I'm wondering why literary authors write.

I think I see where your going. The thing is that True Allegory is actually very rare. The Pilgrim's Progress is one of the few actual allegories I can think of (The Holy War also by Bunyan is another but it's not as well know nor are his other works). To be true allegory each element of the story mirrors some idea or thought as in Pilgrim and all the people he meets and the places he travels, even the "road" itself are reflections of Christian ideas and teachings. In the Narnia books when people say there are allegorical elements they refer elements like Aslan who is obviously a representation of Christ. There are other elements of the stories that are meant to teach Christian ideals or even simply moral lessons that are not direct representations of things from the Bible. I'd say The Last Battle is probably the most overtly allegorical volume of the series. Then there are books Like The Screwtape Letters or The Great Divorce which overtly teach lessons but are not allegorical. From there we get to stories like the BeauSeigneur Christ Clone Trilogy or the Left behind series that attempt to tell fictional stories drawn from scripture or interpretations thereof. I don't think (personally) we need to worry about labeling these stories so much. I doubt it will effect (in general) what most get from the given story/book. For those (of us) to whom it matters, we may know that a given story is symbolic rather than allegorical but it isn't critical to most readers unless it would (and it usually won't)somehow change or impede understanding.

I enjoyed That Hideous Strength best of the Space Triolgy, but then I'm a sucker for Arthurania.

Also enjoyed Till We Have Faces: A Myth Retold, which is just DIFFERENT.

Loved The Screwtape Letters - How a Senior Devil Instructs a Junior Devil in the Art of Temptation..

I held back...I like Perelandra the best I think. Of course I like the entire trilogy, but I have a special place for the second.

Hi Ron, have you read The Great Divorce? One of my favorite books and favorite Lewis reads.

I have read The Great Divorce, but didn't care for it all that much. It was, of course, a Dante's Inferno redux. At the time, I was unfamiliar with George MacDonald (a shortcoming I have since corrected), so didn't appreciate him as Lewis' Virgil.

I've got to disagree with you here Ron. The Great Divorce has nothing to do with an actual view of the afterlife per se. Lewis originally wrote it as (somewhat of) a response to The Marriage of Heaven and Hell

I've found others who didn't get a lot from it. I was leading a study on it a few years ago, but my wife's health failed during that time and I had to hand it off. Later I talked to people and some, like you weren't impressed while others like myself found it heavy with meaning.

I love the book. If on the other hand it didn't click with you I suppose it just shows we all think differently.

Mike is absolutely correct that The Great Divorce occurs outside the gates as it were of heaven.

As I said, it didn't do much for me, but (as Mike said) that's okay, too.

Perelandra was definitely the most theologically sophisticated of the three.

It does deal with an interesting question (to wit what if human-kind had not rebelled and what reasoning led to rebellion etc.). Though I suppose that I also just like the book itself best of all the trilogy. Both the subject matter and the writing itself appealed to me.

Though I do as I said like the entire trilogy, I'm only dealing with a favorite among the 3 here.

I too liked That Hideous Strength best, but I loved reading all three of them and I keep coming back to them when I need them still. In the last book (THS) there is one of the best definitions of sin I have come across outside the Bible itself. I find new things to consider every time I return to these books, maybe more so in the last two of the three.

Hi Teresa, I find that (new things each time I read) in all Lewis's books.

Hi I know I'm late to the discussion but being a major C.S. Lewis fan I thought I would comment. I love all of the Narnia books, but my favorites always involve the character of Eustace. I mean taking such an unpleasant character and then turning him around in a way which only Jesus Christ (Aslan) could do. The plots were the most complex and interesting to me. Best opening line of a book ever in my opinion "There was a boy called Euctace Clarence Scrubb, and he almost deserved it." Masterpiece!

I'm late to this discussion, too. I've read some of Lewis' "adult" books, but I'll forever be a children's lit enthusiast. I love Narnia. I'm really not an allegory fan, but my favorite is still Lion, Witch and Wardrobe for the imagination alone. I remember entering that world for the first time in sixth grade (ages and ages ago now!), and it just captured me. I've revisited the series a dozen times, and I love Tolkien's Middle Earth even more. I can't wait to meet those old boys someday...

The Jan./Feb. 2013 issue of the classical Christian magazine Touchstone has a really good article by C. R. Wiley, "Lost and Found in the Cosmos: The Alternate and Alternative Worlds of H. P. Lovecraft and C. S. Lewis." (You have to be a Touchstone subscriber to access the electronic version; but if you're not, you can possibly find it in print or in a full-text subscription database at your local library, or get it by interlibrary loan.) It's a fascinating comparison/contrast of two roughly contemporary SF writers (who aren't often oompared), bringing out some interesting similarities as well as differences, but particularly contrasting the great difference in their worldviews and how it affects the message of their fiction. Presbyterian pastor Wiley is the founder of the Edwards Institute for Apologetics and the Arts, as well as a fiction writer himself; his The Purloined Boy won the 2010 Independent Publishers Gold Medal for Young Adult Fiction.

I used to get Touchstone and let it go because of "financial" considerations.

Is it unchristian if I say..."crap!"

Mike, message me with your mailing address, and I'll see what I can do (within copyright laws!) about getting you a copy.

It's okay I don't want to bend laws. I'll see about getting it from the library and if I can't then maybe I'll have to resubscribe (I always liked the magazine) and order the back copy.

What month and year was the issue?

Oh sorry, I see you already posted that. I've also missed the Church Year Calenders I used to order from them, LOL.

You know when I canceled the subscription they offered me a free one, but I didn't want to cost them as I know they basically exist on donations.

Thanks.

You're welcome, Mike! If you get to read the article, I'll be interested in hearing what you think of it.

Hi, I'm the Newbie on the block, haven't even introduced myself yet. My name is Lorie, and I'm a compulsive Tolkein/ Lewis fan. In fact I'm searching somewhat desperately for some new authors to latch onto, and am wondering if you might have any suggestions. After finishing the Narnia series, the LotR series, and the Hobbit, all twice plus through, I've turned to some secular writers (George Martin of The Game of Thrones, Suzanne Collins of The Hunger Games) and been alternatively disgusted and / or disappointed. (What was I expecting from a Recommended Reading List that I found through a google search of "what to read after Tolkein?"). Have you any recommendations for someone in my predicament? I'm on extended medical leave and suddenly have a great deal of time to read (like never before in my life!) and I feel like I'm drifting in a vacuum with no plan. THANK YOU!

Hi Lorie. Most of my friends here will know what I'll recommend. I'm a huge fan of Tolkien and Lewis also. One of my favorite "novels" (it's actually a trilogy but I read it in the one volume edition, so I think of it as a single book) is The Deed of Paksenarrion. As I said this is a trilogy. It says that it's volume 3 through 5 but what get's called vol. 1 and 2 are really prequels, not quite as good and not part of the actual story. They take place thousands of years before, so....

Anyway, I love the book. Hope this helps. I'm sure we can recommend other books here, more than you can read probably, LOL.

Thank you! This sounds fascinating, I'll check it out, and see if it pulls me out of this "withdrawal syndrome"!

I've read it many times.

Downloading . . .

Hi, Lorie�

I might have just the ticket for you. Let me recommend the "King of the Trees" Christian fantasy series, named after the first title, The King of the Trees. I am the author. The series consists of seven titles (so far). They are listed below. Like Lewis's series, my books are Biblically allegorical on many levels. Readers have compared them to a stylistic and conceptual cross between Tolkien and Lewis. Since The King of the Trees was first published, I have yet to meet anyone who loves the Chronicles of Narnia who does not also love my series.

Each title features a glossary and pronunciation guide at the back for easier reading and/or reading aloud. (Some families have read the entire series aloud as an evening activity.) The series appeals to pre-teens, teens and adults.

For more information, feel free to check out my website:

Here are the Å·±¦ÓéÀÖ pages for each title:

The King of the Trees
Torsils in Time
The Golden Wood
The Greenstones
The Downs
Kyleah's Mirrors
The Birthing Tree

I hope and pray that you recover quickly!

God bless you�

William Burt