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This is the Week One thread for the next Presidential Series selection (John Quincy Adams).

The week's reading assignment is:

Week One - January 9th - January 15th -> INTRODUCTION and ONE p. ix - 24

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Borders and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library. Bryan's edition is ISBN: 0679404449 (hardcover)

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to begin reading this selection and/or to post.

Bryan Craig will be your moderator for this selection as he is our lead for all Presidential selections. We hope you enjoy Week One of this discussion.

Welcome,

~Bryan

by Paul C. Nagel

Chapter Overviews and Summaries

Introduction
In the introduction we learn John Quincy Adams (JQA) has written in a diary since 1779, an important piece of historical record, and an important tool the author used for the book. JQA had a storied public service, but "tormenting private struggle." (p. ix)

Chapter One
In chapter 1, we get an idea of the Adams family history, a family that dates back to 1632 in America. However, JQA saw himself as a different Adams, not a quiet spirit, but more spirited. JQA was the man of the house as he was the oldest of four siblings. It was a turbulent time as the American Revolution began and Boston was a hot spot for it. His father, John Adams, worked on the Continental Congress, while his mother, Abigail, ran the household and supported the revolutionary cause. He got along with his father, but his mother was more complex. She tended to displace her anxieties of her older brother onto JQA. Her older brother lived in poverty, an alcoholic who committed suicide. She did not want to see JQA fall into the same temptations, but live a disciplined life. JQA wanted independence and the two would clash.

JQA traveled with his father to Europe in February 1778. JQA learned French on the voyage, a child well suited academically. They landed in France and both took in the theater and concerts, and JQA went to a boarding school. Abigail would nag JQA about "never disgracing her." (p. 16). However, Paris did not last long as John Adams was recalled. It took awhile to get a ship, so John Adams tutored his son himself. John and JQA ended up returning to Europe in 1779. Back in Paris in 1780, JQA went to a school run by the Pechigny family and dived into Latin and Greek. John and JQA moved to Holland for a new assignment. JQA enrolled in the Latin School, but was pulled out to be tutored by Benjamin Waterhouse. Waterhouse was attending Leyden University, so JQA was also able to study there. Abigail contunied to write letters about JQA being in control, neat, and clean. JQA ignored most of her letters. As the chapter closes, JQA went to St. Petersburg with Francis Diana. JQA regretted being pulled out of Leyden to do so.

So, an approach for the book's construct is psycho-history. He used primary sources to glean as best as he could, JQA and family's mental status or feelings.

How do you feel about this approach?

As you think about the approach, we can tell Abigail is a large part of JQA's life and we see the clash between mother and son, not unusual at all.

I have to say, "wow" at first here. This is not the same Abigail as you read in the text-books. What are your thoughts so far about JQA's mother?

I was a little confused by John Adams' assignments, so I found this on the MA Historical Society:

Appointed by Congress a joint commissioner (with Benjamin Franklin and Arthur Lee) to France, John Adams sailed from Boston with his son John Quincy in February 1778. In the summer of 1779, father and son returned to Massachusetts where Adams was elected to represent Braintree at the convention to frame a state constitution. The Constitution of 1780, drafted by John Adams, is the oldest written constitution in the world still in effect.

The following year, Congress elected Adams to negotiate treaties of peace and commerce with Great Britain; he consequently returned to Europe in November 1779, accompanied by his two eldest sons, John Quincy and Charles. Additional commissions soon followed: one to negotiate a Dutch loan and another to negotiate a treaty of amity and commerce with the Netherlands. Adams was also elected a joint commissioner (with Franklin, John Jay, Henry Laurens, and Thomas Jefferson) to treat for peace with Great Britain.

Seventeen eighty-two was a banner year for John Adams—he secured recognition of the United States in the Netherlands, contracted the first of four loans from Amsterdam bankers to provide crucial financial aid for the United States, and signed a treaty of amity and commerce with the Netherlands. In September 1783, after nearly a year of negotiation, Adams and his fellow commissioners signed the Definitive Peace Treaty with Great Britain. From 1785 to 1788 John Adams served as the first American minister to the Court of St. James's in London.
(Source: )

Here is a great online exhibit on JQA in his younger years:

While JQA was under pressure from both parents, I, too, was surprised by how unrelenting his mother was. I had thought that Abigail was doing other things besides fussing so much about her son's morals, even while with his father. Was getting off the beaten path so easy to do back then (compared to now)??
I like the psycho-history approach, especially in his case where so much has been written about his personality that has more to it than just surface observation.

Hi, all. I hope to join you for this discussion, but it'll take me about a month to even get started. Thankfully there is a "better late than never" policy, and hopefully I can catch up quickly. :)

HI Elizabeth - I am under time pressure too but it is less than 50 pages a week - just a comment

I am intrigued that we will have his diary as a leaning and listening post thru this book.

I think also that this is an opportunity to see the Calvinistic work ethic of the 1600s & 1700s in New England. To see the kind of people, who came to the New World, and were JQAs antecedents. I think that both genetically and environmentally he was geared to succeed.

Think of all the reading that was put upon him - no TV or video games.......

I think of the experience he had - the voyage at age 10 with the storms, the danger, men dying.

So he only lived with B. Franklin for less than a year - what an experience for a boy like that.

And at age 11 teaching diplomats to speak English and to be then at 12 or so dispatched to Russia as an aid on a diplomatic mission - being exposed to French, Dutch and other languages

So his Mom was apprehensive - it shows the expectation that he faced. That she none the less wanted him to accompany his father - what vision on her part.

That, thinking of her brother, she feared for the failure of her son. But of course the New England purity/pride shows itself in her desire to not be embarrassed.

Taking this in is difficult and I am adding some books to my list to read (if I ever have the time) (maybe if Å·±¦ÓéÀÖ crashes) but only the English versions thank you.

As a final remark I would say think of the education that John Adams must have had to have set these programs for his son.

PS - sorry - forgot one observation -

pg 10 - the inscription of John Adams on the burial stone of Henry Adams........ "Veneration of the piety, humility, simplicity, prudence, patience, temperance, frugality, industry and perseverance"

Makes me think of

A (boy) Scout is trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful (maybe kill the cheerful for the Adams), thrifty, brave, clean, reverent --- from memory after all these years

Elizabeth S wrote: "Hi, all. I hope to join you for this discussion, but it'll take me about a month to even get started. Thankfully there is a "better late than never" policy, and hopefully I can catch up quickly. :)"

No worries, Elisabeth, we will be here in a month :-)

Virginia wrote: "While JQA was under pressure from both parents, I, too, was surprised by how unrelenting his mother was. I had thought that Abigail was doing other things besides fussing so much about her son's m..."

I was a little shocked, too, but Vince adds some important social context to it all. Thanks Vince.

You do get the impression he had to mature quickly. He lived in a time of war and disease (no modern medicine) and going to Europe. Not every kid can do it.

Bryan wrote: "As you think about the approach, we can tell Abigail is a large part of JQA's life and we see the clash between mother and son, not unusual at all.

I have to say, "wow" at first here. This is n..."

This depiction of Abigail was a little unexpected for me too. I always knew she was headstrong and was more that willing to argue politics with her husband, but I had not really thought of her in the mothering aspect. It is easy to imagine that she would be just as headstrong with them. She knew what was right for them and she was going to make it happen whether they wanted it or not. Clearly we can see the wedge that put between her and her son.

Bryan wrote: "In the introduction we learn John Quincy Adams (JQA) has written in a diary since 1779, an important piece of historical record, and an important tool the author used for the book. JQA had a stori..."

I didn't know that he kept a diary and way to go for keeping it almost religiously for nearly 70 years. I don't think I have been able to keep a diary for more than 7 days! But it was very common back then for people to keep diaries. It is a great gift to be left to historians to get a little inner glimpse of the man we typically see only politically.

I like the psychoanalysis approach. It humanizes him when he is typically a president that is approached in a cold manner. I originally wasn't looking forward to reading this because of the subject, but I am liking the author's approach very much.

I enjoy reading everyone’s comments on this book. I agree that Abigail Adams is shown in a very negative light. I had not read that previously. It is difficult to place myself in those times with the religious restrictions of the time.

The author makes the case that her attitude was form by the actions of her brother. However, I had to wonder is some of her reaction came from her disappointment in not being able to join her husband on his trip to Paris. The author relates that she was “Crestfallen.� I can’t imagine how she felt after being home alone with her children while her husband was away in Philadelphia and traveling around New England. Abigail heard the news and surely made mental plans of her trip to Paris. Only to have John Adams tell her trip was too dangerous.

Would her attitude towards JQA’s behavior if she had been with him in Paris?

Heather wrote: "I like the psychoanalysis approach. It humanizes him when he is typically a president that is approached in a cold manner. I originally wasn't looking forward to reading this because of the subject, but I am liking the author's approach very much."

I do think the psycho-history can play a positive role. My issue is at times authors will take a big leap from the sources, and it almost becomes fiction. However, I get the impression early on that Nagel is more responsible.

Jimwenz wrote: "I enjoy reading everyone’s comments on this book. I agree that Abigail Adams is shown in a very negative light. I had not read that previously. It is difficult to place myself in those times with t..."

Thanks for the comments Jimwenz. Great question.

Would she be more upset with JQA seeing the European "distractions" first-hand, or would she be more strict with him since she is there...?? I get the sense she would not let up on him even if she was in Paris.

Vince talks about the Calvinist/New England values that might very well play a role in Abigail & JQA's lives. I'm a little surprised Nagel has not brought this up. Could he be playing this down to raise the drama?

By the way, William Smith, Abigail's brother, died in 1787 when JQA was 20.

I also found it interesting that JQA couldn't openly rebel against his mother. He struck out a passage in one of his letters. Any thoughts why he felt he couldn't?

Thanks Bryan.

Bryan wrote: "Vince talks about the Calvinist/New England values that might very well play a role in Abigail & JQA's lives. I'm a little surprised Nagel has not brought this up. Could he be playing this down t..."

Just an afterthought on the thoughts and feelings including JQA's inabilitiy to "openly rebel" and all other things.

This is partly from the diary written at the time by a pre-teen - and I think we will have to be aware that the diary is playing an important role in this book throughout as a source and as we go thru the stages of JQA's life he will have different degrees of maturity.

I was surprised at the extent Abigail coached the letters he wrote. Even to his cousin, which seemed extreme. He struggled to compose letters on his own immediately after leaving her. It must have been a huge relief going to Europe and not having to put up with her micro -managing him 24-7.

Vince wrote: "This is partly from the diary written at the time by a pre-teen - and I think we will have to be aware that the diary is playing an important role in this book throughout as a source and as we go thru the stages of JQA's life he will have different degrees of maturity."

Indeed, Vince. You can begin to understand why his diary is so important for this time period.

Theresa wrote: "I was surprised at the extent Abigail coached the letters he wrote. Even to his cousin, which seemed extreme. He struggled to compose letters on his own immediately after leaving her. It must have ..."

Interesting comment, Theresa. I agree, I think it was a good thing to be more on your own, although he did do it at a pretty young age.

Also, I think in this time period, the mores were different in that it was not unusual to have kids at a young age on their own or helping to support the family.

Information on Benjamin Waterhouse, JQA's tutor at Leyden:

Benjamin Waterhouse was the first successful US practitioner of vaccination for smallpox. He was among the first American colonists to receive an extensive European medical education, studying with John Fothergill in London, taking courses with William Cullen in Edinburgh, and receiving his MD from the Dutch University at Leiden in 1780.

At the time, few formally educated physicians practiced in the colonies, and healers were an eclectic variety of midwives, empirics, and apprentice-trained doctors. Waterhouse returned to the new American Republic in 1782 as a new member of a small medical elite, and he became the first professor of the Theory and Practice of Physic at Harvard.
(Source: )

More info:

"I had much rather you should have found your grave in the ocean you have crossed, or any untimely death crop you in your infant years, rather than see you an immoral profligate or a graceless child"

Regarding the viewpoint of psycho-history, I think this statement would fall under the textbook definition of passive/aggressive. This amount of pressure put on a young child had to cause a lifelong impact.

I agree with others, this book is a front row seat into 1700-1800’s Puritan New England. The constant devotion and fear of slipping into any sort of moral vice is all encompassing. It leads to expressed guilt at enjoying the simple pleasures of being a child. Having been in a home with a very religious Grandmother, who must have been a direct decedent of Abigail based upon some of the quotes and actions, I will admit this type of pressure lasts a very long time.

I am still in amazement that this young man had lived, in all reality for his time, a full life by the age of 16.

Great comments, Rodney, thank you.

We can tell from the author that JQA did want to rebel and he did not write often to his mother, and I think it is because of Abigail's attitudes. As the author says earlier, JQA's life was a struggle: to stay on the road of good morals, while straying now and then... a lot of pressure.

As Rodney suggests, it will be interesting to see the long-term affects on JQA as he moves along in life.

...And as a kid seeing the Battle of Bunker Hill, whoa. It seemed to be a messy battle, close quarters. Here is a famous picture:



More information:

Bryan, I'm just making an assumption, but it would appear to me that having witnessed what had to be a horrific event, would have that event burned into their memory. “Don’t fire till you see the whites of their eyes.� That community was not that large, they had to know people fighting and dying in that battle. Combined with the fear of the British Navy on his travels to Europe, one would assume a young man would develop an intense mistrust of large empires and monarchies.

I'm interested to see if this theory plays out through the reading.

Rodney wrote: "Bryan, I'm just making an assumption, but it would appear to me that having witnessed what had to be a horrific event, would have that event burned into their memory. “Don’t fire till you see the ..."

Thanks Rodney

What a great observation - at the beginning of the war for indenpendence the local fighters, wounded, killed were your neighbors.

I often reflect that the USA has nor seen grandmothers or children die in a war since 1865 - and I think it has influenced our view of the world - in 1776 it was very different I assume in New England

What seems odd to me in the first chapter is the paucity of detail on the political issues of the day and the status of nation-building. We understand from the text the general role John Adams is playing, but there's little here on how the young mind of John Quincy is processing the cultural and political upheaval of the Revolution, i.e. the zeitgeist. Along these lines, shouldn't we have seen more from the precocious JQA and his early letters to his parents? I'm not sure this is necessarily an artifact of the psycho-historical approach. Is there evidence that JQC was shielded by his parents from much of the political hurly-burly?

Yes, Vince and Rodney, I was wondering seeing the battle and friends and neighbors get sucked into battle would do to JQA. We see his dad going away a lot for the political side of things...pretty tough.

FrankH wrote: "What seems odd to me in the first chapter is the paucity of detail on the political issues of the day and the status of nation-building. We understand from the text the general role John Adams is p..."

This is a very valid observation, Frank. You can see I had to add what John Adams was doing during this time, because the author did not supply it. I also wish he added a little more context.

Hi All
I am getting a late start with the comments. I am really enjoying the book so far, I also am getting a lot out of reading all of your comments. I am very impressed with how intelligent young JQA is. Also I was surprised to see how controling Abigail was in her letters with JQA. I don't know much about her, I would be interested in finding a book about her as well. I do agree with Vince that the Calvinist/Puritan background would explain a lot of the strictness of Abigail. Also concerning the fact about the lack of political issues being mentioned by the author, maybe he is trying let us see the perspective of a preteen. I know when I was a preteen I wouldn't have had much interest in the issues of the day. Just a guess, I would like to hear more about the political issues and I thank you Bryan for posting the extra information.

Welcome, Tim, glad you joined us. No worries about your pace. We are around.

I haven't thought about that approach: the author mirroring what JQA is focusing on, which probably is not politics. So, we might be learning more about them as he moves into the political realm by himself. Let's see if this happens. The other thing is that Nagel is not writing a "Life and Times" book, so his intention is to keep to the more personal side of JQA.

I thought it interesting that JQA was so hard on himself; that he really wanted to be a Cicero or a Shakespeare and not a politician. Everyone loves to blame a mother; but I am certain that most mothers were like Abigail Adams in those days and maybe she was harder on him than she should have been. She couldn't have been too much of a nag after dealing with Adams Senior being away more than he was at home and the fact that she had to tend the farm on her own. That was tough on a woman in those days especially.

It leads to this struggle within JQA: public life vs. scholarly pursuits. He enjoyed both in the beginning. You wonder if the family were not into politics, he might have had the freedom to pursue his own way. The family business is tough pressure.

Abigail did suffer a lot, you are right. Now add John Adams' great success, and you want to see it on your kids.

Yes, you see that with the Queen of England as well. Duty gets in the way of freedom. You have to admit he was sent away at a very young age. I never saw Abigail in anything but a favorable light so this is new.

Me too; I am surprised, but I also have not read her letters, either, which is Nagel's source. I must admit I have not read a biography on her, either. I will have to do that in the future.

Tim's comment and the following made me think how different JQA probably was than the "typical" boy of that age at that time. Probably the majority were approaching beginning to work.

Without TV and Gameboys and computers etc probably, at a house like John & Abigail's whether or not John was home conversations and expectations for the young were probably very different than those of my youth - and more so of current youth.

The ambition, not nasty ambition but success ambition, of the Adams had to rub off on JQA more than the average child I would think.

We are peering into the life of the elite in American society. Although not the richest family, we cannot deny their political fortunes. I think it pretty common for such families to have high expectations. I guess it is how you handle it, and JQA seemed to struggle with it at this point in his life.

I'd like to be a fly on the wall during family conversations. Since John Sr. was gone a lot at first, he probably talked with him mother.

Regarding seeing Abigail as controlling, I think you have to look at where they were living -- Paris in 1778 could have been called "sin city." Prostitution was everywhere. Legally it didn't exist after 1560 but in 1778 the Lenoir Ordinance stated that if they insisted on existing, then they were forbidden to walk in public places or display themselves in street windows to attract customers. They were to be restricted to specific areas of the city. JQA was an adolescent, what mother would want her young son living in that type of environment?

Tim if you looking for a book on Abigail--
Woody Holton

Thanks for this interesting information, Carol. You make an important point: Abigail was legitimately concerned with her son for some good reasons. I think this helps counter-balance some things the author does not add in the book.

Do you think the author is treating Abigail unfairly?

Possibly. Remember Abigail was not your average 18th century domestic female.

I think Nagel chose to interpret it negatively from a young JQA's perspective. But as a reader, I think he should have also looked at Abigail's letter in relation to what was happening in her life at that time.

In 1770, both Abigail and John were devastated after the death of baby Susanna. Abigail began reading “Sermons to Young Women,� published by Presbyterian minister James Fordyce. The book said God created women to be helpmates to their husbands and to shoulder responsibility for the “preservation of religion and virtue�. Fordyce’s Sermons affirmed the beliefs Abigail had started to form on her own. Her goal was the make sure that her children became “moral, God-fearing, useful adults.�

Knowing that information, does it change the way you see Abigail?

Great, Carol, thanks for the helpful information. Indeed, we can probably say that we have a context on why Abigail is writing these things to her son, and presumably to her other children, and even John Sr.

Could we say it is more of an issue with JQA, who is misreading these lines as threats and insecurities?? There might be blame on both sides, perhaps.

Don't forget to cite the book and author:
(no image) Sermons For Young Women, 1766 by James Fordyce

Sorry about the links -- honestly I didn't think it was still in print.
Here's an online copy

No problem, Carol, glad to help.

It is interesting to me that he disliked being President so much yet was upset at his defeat for a second term. (Introduction and Chapter One)

It is interesting. Maybe he thought his defeat was a reflection that he failed somehow, being very self-critical.

Yes, or pride - hard to tell yet since I am still just starting the book - but I do agree with the author in many respects that he probably was an enigma to his colleagues. He seems to have had a warm spot for his wife; but oddly enough, the description of him sounds even more austere than his mother who by the way I think he resembles most in his habits and attitudes (even his prodigious letters).

But we will see. Nagel is taking an interesting approach (sort of like Ellis) in American Sphinx. Don't you think?

by Joseph J. Ellis

Pride, I think, is part of it. I think every president who does not get re-elected feels hurt.

You wonder if he is more like his mother and that is a reason he reacts this way??

I do think Nagel and Joseph J. Ellis do have a similar approach. Both are trying to get behind the person writing the documents and dabbling into psychology.