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No, I didn't mean all female characters are weak. But rarely is there a MAIN female character. GE was about Pip-- it was his story.

But I would argue a bit that Miss Havisham's bitterness made her weak. Look at how wasted her life was! She may be iconic and have a strong personality, but she was not fulfilled nor someone you want to emulate. Granted, I'm more partial to Biddy myself.

Jeremy wrote: "This may be sad of my own character but I had a laugh out loud moment when Peepy fell down the stairs! I suppose DHS did not exist in the 1850s. While I am at it, I really liked the feisty charac..."

I laughed too. I think a is part of Dickens physical comedy, the way people laugh at the (violent) three Stooges.

Miss Caddy is probably one of my other favorites. She IS feisty!

And yes, it is very early to really say. I really wanted to know if everyone was loving Esther because I love her so.

I may have to read AToTC next year. I was on a French Revolution kick earlier this year. It would be interesting to compare to The Scarlet Pimpernel.

I thought it was funny how messy Miss Caddy's house was and how she dominated the running of her household. Do you think that she could be considered a feminist for her times?

Meghan wrote: "I may have to read AToTC next year. I was on a French Revolution kick earlier this year. It would be interesting to compare to The Scarlet Pimpernel."

Don't wait until next year! :) Definitely a worthwhile read but I would not know how it compares to the latter.

As for strong female characters, my main argument is Aunt Betsey Trotwood. Hands down one of the most memorable and fun characters in literature for me.

Just this morning I met the character of Mrs. Pardiggle and her 5 boys. Damn! Keep that lady away from me. And her boys! Which then introduced the severe poverty and desitution of the poor family which she was supposedly trying to help. While perhaps subtle is not the right word this is reason #654 why I love Dickens so much. There is this plot that is unfolding and he is interjecting scenes like this which are very pointed of his views but also just an eyeblink of the overall story.

Jeremy wrote: "Just this morning I met the character of Mrs. Pardiggle and her 5 boys. Damn! Keep that lady away from me. And her boys! Which then introduced the severe poverty and desitution of the poor fami..."

I think that Pardiggle makes a nice contrast to Jellyby. Both have lots of kids, rule the roost and devote the bulk of their time to charitable works. I felt so badly for the poor family that Pardiggle visited. There are quite a few characters still to be introduced. I can't wait to see all of the connections and the twists and turns in this one.

Same here. And he doesn't just throw 50 characters at you all at once. It is a couple at a time with enough defining characteristics that you can keep them apart for the most part.

And now Lawrence Boythorn. Awesome character! How very Dickensonian that he happens to be neighbors with Sir Leiscester and Lady Dedlock!

Jeremy wrote: "And now Lawrence Boythorn. Awesome character! How very Dickensonian that he happens to be neighbors with Sir Leiscester and Lady Dedlock!"

Yes, he is the master of creating a small world. It's starting to become more clear as to where the lines between the camps are drawn.

Ok, this is what happens when I don't have the book in front of me. Is Miss Caddy the mom or the daughter? Because I heart the daughter. The mom disturbs me on many levels.

I loved the pointed critique that Dickens made of these so-called do-gooders. They are so myopically focused on other people's problems they fail to notice the deep and horrifying problems that surround them right at home. Not just in their own home, but in their own communities.

But it also made me wonder if he wasn't making a poke at families who chose to keep reproducing to the point where her missionary work kind of gave her an escape from the pressures of motherhood?

Jeremy wrote: "And now Lawrence Boythorn. Awesome character! How very Dickensonian that he happens to be neighbors with Sir Leiscester and Lady Dedlock!"

Is he the crotchety guy who is kicking up a fuss about the road issue? I like him.

Jeremy wrote: "As for strong female characters, my main argument is Aunt Betsey Trotwood. Hands down one of the most memorable and fun characters in literature for me."

Ok, but she isn't a main character either? This is essentially Esther's story, with these other characters supporting it. But in all these other books, the females usually played the supporting role. I just like that Dickens wrote a book about a girl for a change--and one who is likeable and strong in character without being overly moralizing. Someone you would want to befriend.

So many good points, Meghan!

I understand what you are saying about Esther being the main character. My comments are mainly in response to those in the past when I have seen people say that all of Dickens female characters are weak to which my intelligent response is, "What?!"

Boythorn is indeed the guy who is battling Dedlock about the road. I don't know if I would call him crotchety...but he does complain a lot. Just in a very good natured way.

Your point about reproducing and missionary work is profound! I can see in cases of my own life/actions and those around me where volunteerism can take away from the more immediate concerns. It is tough to strike the balance and Mrs. Jellyby appears to be making no attempt at that. Yes, Miss Caddy is the daughter and she is the one I like.

I just read about Nemo (to which I can't read without saying "Nemo!" out loud like in Nemo's dad in the movie. This is the point where I actually was reading the Kindle but using the paperback to go back to certain places in the book. First, the introduction of Mr. and Mrs. Snagsby became confusing to me because he also went on a tangent about Guster and apparently I wasn't quite awake yet because at first I thought Guster was a pet! But it was pretty clear when I went back and re-read a couple of paragraphs. At any rate, without providing any real reasons for why I think this, I have found these recent scenes to be fascinating.

Meghan, your memory has been quite good here. I am really happy that we are having a Dickens discussion together - finally!

Jeremy, we are almost at the same place now. I am on Chapter 13. Gustie threw me off at first, too, since I thought that she was a man - ha ha. Dickens has a real knack for creating interesting characters and they just continue to come as the beginning of the book unfolds.

I also forgot to mention in regards to Esther - I was really impressed on how she chucked Guppy out of the house. She kind of makes herself out to be a sort of simpleton for lack of a better word. Perhaps it is modesty or being 'umble (Uriah Heep anyone?) but as shown through her actions she is quite the decision maker and able to run the entire household without any anxiety whatsoever. Though it is curious to me that she was brought to Bleak House with no real explanation (maybe I missed something or forgot?) but takes on all new tasks with zeal. It seems that Richard and Ann aren't really doing much of an anything, perhaps because they are in the periphery, while Esther is doing a crap ton of work!

Meghan wrote: "No, I didn't mean all female characters are weak. But rarely is there a MAIN female character. GE was about Pip-- it was his story.

But I would argue a bit that Miss Havisham's bitterness made her..."

Excellent points.

Meghan wrote: "I may have to read AToTC next year. I was on a French Revolution kick earlier this year. It would be interesting to compare to The Scarlet Pimpernel."

I've been thinking of reading Les Miserables, but next year is the year I've pledged to tackle Proust, so that might be my Big Scary Book limit.

Jeremy wrote: "I also forgot to mention in regards to Esther - I was really impressed on how she chucked Guppy out of the house. She kind of makes herself out to be a sort of simpleton for lack of a better word...."

No, you didn't miss anything, Jeremy. Esther is given the keys to run the house but there is nothing to indicate that she has skills in this area. I think that maybe because Dickens published his books serially that there was more of a likelihood of gaps to occur because of a lack of editing.

As for Richard and Ada, I think that the plan is for them to marry and then for Richard to be schooled for some type of occupation. Nevertheless, I do agree that they could at least chip in :)

Sarah wrote: "Meghan wrote: "I may have to read AToTC next year. I was on a French Revolution kick earlier this year. It would be interesting to compare to The Scarlet Pimpernel."

I've been thinking of reading ..."

Meghan and I were going to read Les Mis in January, but I think that I may pass because I will need a break from the big books by then and I really need to put a dent in my TBR. I haven't decided yet but that's where I am leaning.

I would jump in on Les Mis....but also given my upcoming commitment to Proust I don't see it happening for at least a year.

Are you and Sarah in the same Proust group?

You made me laugh out loud with the Guster remark. Probably because you had just mentioned Nemo (my brain totally went there too!)

Snagsbys threw me at first too. But the great thing about Dickens is no one is unimportant!

Esther was brought with Ana as her companion. (It wouldn't do for a young girl without a chaperone.) My impression was that her "schooling" was to become a housekeeper type person. But not at this level. Talk about on the job training!

Oh you guys could TOTALLY read Les Mis and whatever else you like. It's super readable! And it's broken down in really nice chapters so you can read it in pieces while you read other stuff. It's just long. But you can sing the show tunes while you read. It makes it fun.

DO IT!!!! (Please?!)

Also, while Proust is slow reading, it's more melodic. He's not really "tough". I found him quite enjoyable while sipping tea.

I CAN SING SHOW TUNES??? I'm IN! hahaha.

And did you have madeleines with your tea?

Meghan wrote: "Oh you guys could TOTALLY read Les Mis and whatever else you like. It's super readable! And it's broken down in really nice chapters so you can read it in pieces while you read other stuff. It's ju..."

You make it difficult to say "no" :). Why did you stop reading it before?

We started reading it in May and in June I started my summer trip. I was reading it on the laptop which I didnt bring. I didn't pick it back up because the group was finished. I had it on my 2013 calendar so I'd love the company.

I promise it is not Infinite Jest :) Neither is Proust.

I didn't. But I can get them here so I just might!

(Er, I'm talking about madeleines)

PS. I was reading Proust and Les Mis at the same time, plus 3 other books. My summer really screwed things up but they were going really well while I was at it.

9 posts!

Yes - I do think Sarah and I are in the same group. Which is quite sizeable given this crazy myth that very few people have read all 7 volumes.

Great point that Esther is Ada's chaperone! (I had to Wikipedia her character name because for some reason I thought she was Ann.) And I suppose that where she was prior to was training although it seemed more like she was dealing with young children there. Kind of crazy in this day and age where I doubt anyone would happily agree to be led by the nose to be a housekeeper!

On Les Mis - I guess I will have to see how the Proust reading goes and how much time is left on the plate. It is something I definitely want to read and almost did at one point and there is a really cool (to me) story in regards to the book I took out from the library.

On where I am at in Bleak House - just started chapter 13 this morning. Chapter 12 was probably the most confusing Dickens chapter I have read. Cleary he was having some expense at the fun of the toity toity class but it seemed very Dr.Seuss like at one point and a bit out of place. I was very glad to get back to Esther's POV.

I'm still on Chapter 13, as I haven't had a chance to read these last two nights. Hopefully, I can get a few chapters in tonight.

I agree about Chapter 12 - again, I think that the serialized approach to publishing allowed things like this to fall through the cracks. As a reader who had been waiting for "what's next?", I may have been a bit confused.

Yeah! We are almost on the same page! At my current pace - and I have actually gotten a decent amount of reading time - this is going to take me awhile. One issue is that if I try reading in bed my eyes will NOT stay open damnit!

I agree about the serialization. It just doesn't seem to fit in with his normal style or all else written thus far in the this book.

Even though John Irving has paid much homage to Dickens and left no doubt that he was heavily influenced by him, when I was reading the scene with Mr. and Mrs. Badger it was the first time while reading Dickens that I thought I could clearly see the influence in terms of characters. The way they carry on and on about Mrs. Badger's two former husbands reminds me very much of some of Irving's more eccentric characters.

We are keeping a good and close pace. I'm trying to read 2-3 chapters a day so this one will take me awhile to finish, too - it's over 1000 pages! At least it moves more quickly than Infinite Jest - ha ha. I can't read in bed either. I tend to be sleep deprived.

I'm on Chapter XV. Some spoilers are coming:







Well, no surprise that Richard and Ada are going to be married. However, Richard needs to become a doctor first so they'll have to wait. Did you think that Mr. J's comments about them still feeling the same way toward's each other down the road to be foreshadowing in some way?

We also know now that Miss Caddy is engaged, too. I thought that her fiancee's father was incredibly funny. He was known for his "deportment". It's not funny about what happened to his wife and son as a result of this, but Mr. T, I believe, is meant to be a ridiculous characters. Between him and the Badgers, I found the last few chapters to be much fun.

Jeremy wrote: "Even though John Irving has paid much homage to Dickens and left no doubt that he was heavily influenced by him, when I was reading the scene with Mr. and Mrs. Badger it was the first time while re..."

Interesting. I've read a few Irvings and I never knew that.

I've only read two Irving's, and they were long, long ago. But that is really interesting. Makes me want to look it up to see what you're referring to!

Sera's spoilers (but my comments aren't):


When comparing certain characters by modern standards, they are truly atrocious. But given the times, I appreciate Dickens' levity. It's exaggeration to make a very distinct point (like Caddy's mother).

I think, particularly in this story, Dickens uses humor to make his political and social points much more. So the reader gains the moral without feeling preached at.

Back to the serialization aspect:

That was the part I least liked about GE. I had heard he was paid by the word and that's why each sentence felt stretched and bloated.

I think I would have greatly enjoyed reading BH in serial form. I kind of wish we had that still (in written form).

Trivia:

In James Clavell's Tai-Pan, the main character gets his mail from England (he's in Hong Kong). He gets a stack of newspapers and the first thing he looks for is the next installment of GE.

That was the first time I ever read a fictional reference to any Dickens being in serial form.

Sarah wrote: "Jeremy wrote: "Even though John Irving has paid much homage to Dickens and left no doubt that he was heavily influenced by him, when I was reading the scene with Mr. and Mrs. Badger it was the firs..."

I would like to say I'm clever but all you have to do is read Trying To Save Piggy Snead. Though Irving pays a lot of heed to Dickens he bows down to Gunter Grass. Also Graham Greene which is why I started reading him.

Meghan wrote: "Trivia:

In James Clavell's Tai-Pan, the main character gets his mail from England (he's in Hong Kong). He gets a stack of newspapers and the first thing he looks for is the next installment of GE...."

That is fascinating!!

Greene is definitely one of those authors I need to read. Which one would you recommend, Jeremy?

Jeremy wrote: "Sarah wrote: "Jeremy wrote: "Even though John Irving has paid much homage to Dickens and left no doubt that he was heavily influenced by him, when I was reading the scene with Mr. and Mrs. Badger i..."

One of my Å·±¦ÓéÀÖ friends is obsessed with both Irving and Greene, so I guess that makes sense. I haven't read Trying to Save Piggy Snead. I've only read the ones everyone has read: A Prayer for Owen Meany, The World According to Garp, The Cider House Rules. I have Last Night at Twisted River and Until You but haven't gotten to them yet.

Funny - I don't like Irving, but I read The End of the Affair this year, and absolutely fell in love with Greene's writing and his insight into how and why people do and feel the way they do. I would like to read The Quiet American this year.

Meghan wrote: "Trivia:

In James Clavell's Tai-Pan, the main character gets his mail from England (he's in Hong Kong). He gets a stack of newspapers and the first thing he looks for is the next installment of GE...."

Nice! I read TP so long ago that I don't remember much about it.

Meghan - Like Sera I started with The End of the Affair and was blown away. The Power and the Glory was also a very strong book. I haven't read anything by him that I didn't like. I also want to pick up The Quiet American very soon but I might join a group reading Our Man In Havana next month. I agree that Greene has that amazing insight into people much like Steinbeck but certainly a different type of writer.

Sarah - TtSPS is a collection of works. It has a couple of short stories, some essays written by Irving on Dickens, Greene and Grass (if I remember correctly) and a bit of a memoir on his wrestling career. I really liked it. Then again I have liked all he has wrote including the ones that some people detest.

Jeremy wrote: "Meghan - Like Sera I started with The End of the Affair and was blown away. The Power and the Glory was also a very strong book. I haven't read anything by him that I didn't like. I also want to..."

What's the reading group with the Greene read next month?

Are you a Steinbeck fan, too? Sarah and I love Steinbeck and we've been successfully converting, Meghan, too :)