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Discussion is open for the May group read of This is How It Always Is, and I'm leading the discussion for this one.

Please use spoiler tags if you are sharing any plot related surprises. Just type < spoiler > to start the spoiler and < / spoiler > to end the spoiler (remove the spaces for the html tag to work).

Posts should be exclusively about this book.

When you've finished, be sure to post in the "May Challenge: I Finished!" thread.

I just downloaded the audio version of this book today, so without having started it yet, here are my "prereading" questions:

1. Has anyone read Frankel's other books that gave you an idea of whether you would like this one?

2. This book was the October 2018 pick for Reese's book club - does that affect your expectations for the book? (I happened to get an email about this from audible today with the .)

I haven't read this author's other novels, and I'm not sure I'd be interested in them based on the descriptions, but this one sounded like one I would enjoy (as far as the plot - we'll see how the writing is).

I have enjoyed the other books that I've read on Reese's book club list (Next Year in Havana, Braving the Wilderness: The Quest for True Belonging and the Courage to Stand Alone, Little Fires Everywhere, and Eleanor Oliphant Is Completely Fine) so this book being on the list raises my expectations a bit. Although I always try to keep those in check since they can ruin a book I might otherwise enjoy. ;)

How is everyone liking this one so far?

I’m only 50 pages in but I’m already in love with this book!!! I’m so thankful I decided to do this challenge because I probably would not have read this!!

I didn't realize this was the selection this month but I read it a couple of months ago and loved it.

I actually didn't think the writing was great but it was fine and the plot more than made up for it IMO.

1. In answer to the discussion questions, I had never heard of Frankel and picked this up based on the description and recommendations from GR friends.

2. I didn't know this was a pick by Reese when I read it but I don't think it would have changed my expectations one way or another even though, like you Lauren, I have read a few of her other picks and enjoyed them.

I also read this book about a year ago. It was recommended by my mother-in-law. I had never heard of Laurie Frankel before. I also read it a few months before it made Reese's list, that never happens. I liked the book a lot. Rachel makes an interesting point about not great writing. I never noticed as the subject matter and plot more than made up for it.

Would this book fit for any other prompts besides the one about the family? I already completed that prompt :(

I have not read anything by this author before, so I am going into this blind. I have enjoyed several of the RW monthly book picks, so I'm hoping this one is enjoyable as well.

I read and enjoyed this book back in 2017. It's the first, and only so far, book I have read by this author. Usually if a book is selected by a celebrity like Reese or Oprah it's kind of a turn-off for me (too popular at that point). I'm glad they promote books and reading like they do though!

Oooh on Monkiecat's rec, I'm putting the audiobook on hold!! I'm always looking for a good audiobook :-)

(I'm sure I won't get it in time for this discussion, but that's ok.)

@RachelNYC did you read a hard copy or listen to the audio version of the book? Listening to it yesterday I noticed the writing style was a bit *different* but I think the narration makes it work as an audio book (as Monkiecat mentioned). It is a bit rushed though... Where some books are easy to listen to at 1.25x the speed, this one is fast enough at the normal speed.

@Nadine if you have Hoopla that's where I found the book, so I didn't have to wait for the hold. ;)

Oh I never think of hoopla for audiobooks!! I use only Overdrive on my phone, but I could probably download the hoopla app to my phone, I have it on my iPad. I'll have to check if my library offers the audiobook via hoopla.

@Rachel this book would also fit in "recommended by a celebrity" or possibly "should be turned into a movie"?

@Nadine yes, I use the Hoopla app on my phone as an audio book backup for Overdrive frequently, although my library limits me to four per month. I like getting around the wait though. Hopefully your library has it on there!

I decided to pick this up for the challenge read because a couple of my Å·±¦ÓéÀÖ friends whose book opinions I usually align with read and liked it. I have not read any of Frankel’s other books and I didn’t know about Reese’s book club until just now so neither of those things influenced my expectations going in.

I’m about 80 pages in and I am generally enjoying it but I agree with the others who have said the writing feels a little stilted. The character and warmth of the family mostly comes out through the dialogue and not the surrounding narration.

Kali wrote: "The character and warmth of the family mostly comes out through the dialogue and not the surrounding narration."

Good observation - that makes sense.

Ok, I'm getting closer to the halfway mark, and the book is bringing up more *feels* (frustration, annoyance, anger, rage, sadness...).

As far as the conversations with the teachers and elementary school administration, I wonder how these experiences are for parents now. Does anyone know how schools are treating children that are gender-nonconforming these days?

I can't remember noticing this when I was growing up until high school. We had a trans person in our friends group, but I didn't have classes with her or see how other students interacted with her, so I'm not sure how difficult it was. This was in the early 2000s in a fairly liberal northern California town, so my friends and I thought it wasn't a big deal, but I don't know how it was received by everyone else. This book helps show some of the many difficulties that these families face. I'm definitely putting more thought into it now...

Lauren wrote: "Does anyone know how schools are treating children that are gender-nonconforming these days? ..."


I haven't read this book (yet) so I don't know what happens ... but my daughters both know kids who have: switched genders, declared themselves non-binary, or just acted non-binary without making a declaration. (And by "acted" I mean: changed their names, changed their hairstyle, etc.) so I went and asked them! Younger daughter refused to wake up and answer me, so all my survey answers are from the 10th grader.

My daughters are both in marching band, and so I don't know if gender-non-conforming kids are drawn to band, or if this is just A LOT more common in their school then it was in my day. (in "my day" being the 80s, transgender people did not speak out AT ALL EVER; nonbinary, genderqueer, pansexual, and transgender weren't terms we'd ever heard of back then.) A few years back the drum major, who was AFAB, changed his name to Hal and cut his hair and that was that, he was he, and everyone liked him just as much as they liked him the year before. That's the only kid I really knew. But drum majors are generally well-liked, that's how they get chosen as drum major!

In no case is my daughter aware of bullying, but she admits that she is generally oblivious and it might be happening and she doesn't see it, but definitely none of the kids she hangs around with are ever mean about it, and teachers are always accommodating about name changes.

Nadine wrote: "Lauren wrote: "Does anyone know how schools are treating children that are gender-nonconforming these days? ..."


I haven't read this book (yet) so I don't know what happens ... but my daughters b..."

That's good to hear. In the book the school is figuring things out like which bathroom to use, etc. so I didn't know if schools have policies on that now to help kids be who they are with fewer obstacles. I'm assuming teachers are also trained on "they/their" pronouns?

Varies greatly by school. Some are very supportive, and then some schools still tell girls they are required to wear dresses or say yes to every boy who asks them to dance. Depends on what century they want to live in.

I asked my daughter about the bathroom/lockerroom situation for transgender kids, and she had no idea. I suspect the school does not have a policy in place and handle it student-by-student.

I also suspect that most students are more open-minded than many parents, and if the school enacted a formal policy, there would be some parents complaining loudly and angrily, so it's probably best that the school just quietly accommodates kids.

I do live in NY, which is one of the more liberal states in the US, but I live in CENTRAL NY, which is decidedly NOT liberal (NY is a "blue state" only because of NYC - the rest of the state is pretty red, except for Ithaca of course!), so we have a mix of POVs here.

I'm a little past the halfway mark, and am curious how other readers think the parents (Rosie and Penn) are handling everything. Is there anything you would have done differently?

I think in general they're taking it all pretty well and making decisions that are reasonable. I can understand the urge to hide the situation since discussing it with strangers is difficult and potentially dangerous, but I'm guessing there are consequences that come later. I appreciate the conversations they have about it which shows their thoughtfulness.

I would be interested in more perspective from the child though, since so far it's mainly the parents so far. Maybe that comes later? Or maybe the point is to focus on the experiences of the parents of gender-nonconforming/trans children?

Monkiecat wrote: "I think this book is more for showing that you can't "parent the trans away" - it's a book about parenting a trans child written by the parent of a trans child, and I do appreciate that the author ..."

True, I agree. And you read my mind - that was going to be my next question. Thanks!

I added "If I Was Your Girl" to my library list - does anyone else have recommendations for books about trans experiences (by trans authors)?

Well stated Monkiecat. Like Lauren, at first I was hoping for more from the child but I that's a great point that it would probably cross a line in terms of being and feeling genuine.

I enjoyed If I Was Your Girl as well but I have to say again that the writing was lacking but the book makes up for it in other ways.

For a younger perspective, try the middle grade book George by Alex Gino. It's the top banned/challenged book last year.

I also read this one a couple of months ago and really enjoyed it! It's a great book. I haven't read any of her other books, but I would be open to reading them.

Lauren wrote: "Monkiecat wrote: "I think this book is more for showing that you can't "parent the trans away" - it's a book about parenting a trans child written by the parent of a trans child, and I do appreciat..."

I've read Small Beauty and Fierce Femmes and Notorious Liars: A Dangerous Trans Girl’s Confabulous Memoir recently and they are both by transgender women of color.

1. Has anyone read Frankel's other books that gave you an idea of whether you would like this one?

I've never read this author before.

2. This book was the October 2018 pick for Reese's book club - does that affect your expectations for the book?

I was only vaguely aware Reese Witherspoon had a book club. I only found this book through the monthly challenge. But the description of the book seemed like it was right up my alley.

Thanks for the other book recommendations, everyone! I'm looking into all of them now...

Going back toward the beginning of the book... what did y'all think about the conversation with the teacher about peanut butter? Do schools really have that restriction?

I'm also curious about the range of peanut allergies. I've never met anyone that has one (although I have a gluten allergy and know at least 15 other people who do). Is it really dangers to be in the same room as peanut butter?

Lauren wrote: "Going back toward the beginning of the book... what did y'all think about the conversation with the teacher about peanut butter? Do schools really have that restriction?

I'm also curious about th..."

I have heard of schools having no PB policies - depending on how bad an allergy is it can be very dangerous especially with kids who maybe don't wash up well and touch everything in sight and put their hands, etc. in their mouths.

That said, I would imagine most schools would have VERY clear written policies sent out to all the parents explaining the danger, what exactly is banned, etc. The 'oh, well we thought you would of course know this' attitude definitely would have riled me up in that situation!

I'm about halfway through the book and really enjoying it!

Lauren wrote: "what did y'all think about the conversation with the teacher about peanut butter? Do schools really have that restriction?"

I don't remember the specifics of the conversation that takes place in the book, but I have seen schools handle peanut butter in many different ways. One school had a "no peanut butter" table which I felt isolated those kids. They couldn't sit with their friends and were kept apart because they were "different".

My daughter's school didn't have any rule in the cafeteria as far as I'm aware, but they weren't allowed to bring any peanut butter into the classroom for their snack. This felt like an acceptable restriction. Whenever I felt a little frustrated that I couldn't send in peanut butter crackers for her snack, I reminded myself what it would be like if I had to worry every day about my child's safety because of potential exposure to a tiny bit of peanut butter.

I think smaller schools can get away with handling it on a case by case basis depending on the child and how severe their allergies are. Bigger schools with more students would probably need to put in sweeping rules to ensure all students comply.

Lauren wrote: "In the book the school is figuring things out like which bathroom to use, etc. so I didn't know if schools have policies on that now to help kids be who they are with fewer obstacles. I'm assuming teachers are also trained on "they/their" pronouns?"

I don't have kids but my impression is that it's probably overall a lot more inclusive than when I was in public schools but I am sure there are a lot of variations between school districts. I know locally there are variations in policies about bathrooms specifically district by district within the same state.

My feeling about the school's reaction in the book is that they had a protocol in place to try to avoid lawsuits, as much as to do what's best for the child (if I am remembering correctly, they had a lawyer-type person in the meeting along with the principal and teacher).

I try to read as many Reese picks as possible so I had listened to this last year on a road trip. I personally loved it and had such a hard time with how society tries to fit people in boxes. The kinder situation just upset me and I kept yelling “just let her be!�
It’s a beautiful story and I’m glad I had read it. I can see how some may feel it’s slow to start but the story as whole is just beautiful.

Cari wrote: "I try to read as many Reese picks as possible so I had listened to this last year on a road trip. I personally loved it and had such a hard time with how society tries to fit people in boxes. The k..."

I'm glad you enjoyed it. Now that I finished it, your comment brings up my thoughts about the overall "point" the author might have been aiming for with this story. I was wondering if we were supposed to see the takeaway as (view spoiler)[ "it might be easier for some people to be gender-nonconforming/nonbinary if they are struggling to choose - that's the solution here." To me it seemed that Poppy was only questioning herself as a female when the kids freaked out about it. I didn't get the sense that she ever wanted to be Claude again, but just assumed it was the right thing to do since people couldn't handle "Poppy with a penis." But at the very end I was hoping the takeaway was really more along the lines of "parenting is hard, and your children may have confusion about their gender. It's ok to just go with what they're feeling and support them as they make decisions and potentially change their minds. Try to focus on each day where things are ok, and that can be the happy ending." Did others have either of those interpretations? (hide spoiler)]

Lauren wrote: "Going back toward the beginning of the book... what did y'all think about the conversation with the teacher about peanut butter? Do schools really have that restriction?"

A lot of schools have the restriction. A peanut allergy can quickly be life-threatening. After snack time, a peanut eater passes a pencil to a kid with the allergy or even touches a doorknob, and there you go. Often, the person suffering an allergic reaction may not know what they've touched to trigger the reaction.

My nephew's wife is allergic to all nuts except almonds. They asked a waitress one night if a dish contained pesto, and the waitress said no. Kelsey knew with the first bite--her lips started tingling--and they abandoned dinner and went to the ER. (Pesto often is made with pine nuts.) Epi pens are expensive, and they only keep the user breathing long enough for the paramedics to get there. (The epinephrine wears off, and the allergen is still in the user's system.) Kelsey also is allergic to caramel coloring, so that eliminates things like sodas (although that allergy is just uncomfortable--itching on her lips and face--rather than life-threatening).

Kelsey's father has allergies, including to seafood. Sauces are a danger because things like Worcestershire sauce have anchovies in them. My sister hosts Christmas dinner for the combined families, and she makes a list of the ingredients in each dish and attaches the lists to each serving dish. Sometimes she makes safe and "not safe" versions of something. Even the serving utensils are marked (rubber bands on the handles) to make sure a "not safe" spoon doesn't migrate to a safe dish. The biggest effort goes into making things safe for the folks with allergies without making them feel guilty because you've gone to a lot of extra trouble or deprived guests of dishes they like because someone else at the table has an allergy.

My mother is allergic to mangoes. We lived in Miami, and people had mango trees in their yards. My mother would start wheezing and choking if she just walked under one of the trees.

When I did therapy dog visits, my dogs never were given any peanut butter treats for fear the dogs would lick a kid who had a peanut allergy. Dairy allergies generally aren't contact-dangerous, so the dogs got cheese treats. They didn't mind, but at one point I had a lactose-intolerant dog. He got bits of turkey franks.

And I have a friend who's a retired nurse. She developed a latex allergy and she can tell if balloons were previously in a room when she goes in. (Her grocery store doesn't allow latex balloons at their registers--only mylar ones.) Her husband opens all packages addressed to her. She doesn't fly; if someone on the plane takes something with latex (like a child's toy) out of a bag in-flight, my friend could be dead before they get the plane on the ground. Lots of restaurants have stopped using latex food service gloves--changed to plastic or vinyl gloves, instead.

Climbing down from my soapbox, now. I just know too many people with serious allergies...

KF-in-Georgia wrote: "Lauren wrote: "Going back toward the beginning of the book... what did y'all think about the conversation with the teacher about peanut butter? Do schools really have that restriction?"

A lot of s..."

I have a ton of diet restrictions (in addition to gluten) because of my digestive disease, but I guess I can consider myself lucky that I'm only in trouble if I eat these things; being around them is fine. Thanks for these details - good to know!

Monkiecat wrote: "I'm just going to spoilerize this whole thing, so I don't have to worry about what I say...
Just throwing things out here randomly... It's been a bit since I've read this, but I remember the peanut..."

This makes sense - thanks for sharing your interpretation! A while back I was a foster parent to five siblings and it was insane. I learned to never judge other parents. Ever. ;)

And I think you're right on the peanut butter thing, but they still had the strict "implied" rule and the teacher was really rude about it (on both the peanut butter shaming and the "your kid is different" shaming fronts).

Monkiecat wrote: "I'm just going to spoilerize this whole thing, so I don't have to worry about what I say..."

Your interpretation about it being a fairy tale makes total sense! I think that's why I found the writing style a little distracting at first (although I settled into it and enjoyed the book).

Monkiecat wrote: "My kids have gone to school where there is a peanut allergy, and the rules were very explicit! Notices (paper, text, email, and phone) went out to the whole school, multiple times, to make sure the..."

True - agreed.

For those who finished it, I felt like this one "solution" was missing... did anyone else think this, or is it unrealistic/problematic in some way I'm not realizing?

(view spoiler)[ After the school finds out and Poppy is devastated (and questioning her female identification) it seemed to me that a good option would have been to seek out trans/gender-nonconforming folks that she could talk to about her struggles, or at least find some books. Her parents can't be expected to fully understand or know the "best" thing to do for her. I think she was feeling really alone, and while the trip to Thailand helped, it didn't really address the need to connect with others who understand what she's going through and could give experience-based guidance. And if there isn't a way to connect in person, I think that's one of the benefits of the recent focus on the need for representation and "own voices" in books... right? (hide spoiler)]

Lauren wrote: "For those who finished it, I felt like this one "solution" was missing... did anyone else think this, or is it unrealistic/problematic in some way I'm not realizing? "

Yes this seemed lacking to me too. (view spoiler)[It seemed like they barely even talked to Poppy about the fact that plenty of trans and gender nonconforming people exist and that there are options. And it seemed like a missed opportunity on the Thailand trip that Poppy didn't really talk to K at all.> (hide spoiler)]

Lauren wrote: "I just downloaded the audio version of this book today, so without having started it yet, here are my "prereading" questions:

1. Has anyone read Frankel's other books that gave you an idea of whe..."

I've not read any other books by Frankel, and prior to this year had never even heard of this one. It's definitely not one I would have picked up on my own; knowing that Reese recommends it, definitely helps.

I'm reading the Kindle version and am about 20% of the way through. I'm really enjoying it so far.

I noticed that we have our ratings for this book next to our names with our comments. It looks like almost all of us rated it four stars and one person rated it five stars. We'll see if that changes as those who have "added it" get updated with their rating when they finish. ;)

Borrowing this question from The Modern Mrs. Darcy - "In the novel, we see how secrets both bring people together and put distance between them. How do we see both dynamics in the book?"

Lauren wrote: "Borrowing this question from The Modern Mrs. Darcy - "In the novel, we see how secrets both bring people together and put distance between them. How do we see both dynamics in the book?""

The secret initially brought (view spoiler)[ the Walsh-Adams and Granderson families together when Rosie told Mr. and Mrs. Granderson almost immediately upon meeting them. I feel that has led the Granderson (parents) to be a little more protective; not so much of their own children, but of their children's friends. And, probably aided in their children becoming so close with the Walsh-Adams clan. (hide spoiler)]

But, as most of us were taught growing up, secrets and lies have a way of catching up with you. (view spoiler)[ While yes, it was for good reason- and essentially the safety of their family- the "lie" did a lot of harm in its' own right. Roo has distanced himself, and acted out in such odd ways, as a direct result of the negative connotation that goes along with carrying out such a grand lie. I feel the Walsh-Adams family dynamic is strong enough to overcome, but it definitely had been damaged because of the weight of this burden. (hide spoiler)]

Lauren wrote: "I noticed that we have our ratings for this book next to our names with our comments. It looks like almost all of us rated it four stars and one person rated it five stars. We'll see if that change..."

I just finished Unit II (I believe that puts me at just over 70% of the way through) and I am right now giving it 5 stars. Though, I won't rate it until I finish.

Amanda wrote: "Lauren wrote: "Borrowing this question from The Modern Mrs. Darcy - "In the novel, we see how secrets both bring people together and put distance between them. How do we see both dynamics in the bo..."

Yes, good insights. And we haven't talked about Roo yet... he is an interesting character. What did y'all think of his controversial school project?

I’m just so grateful for these challenges because I never would have found out about this book. It was amazing!

Starting this one today!

Regarding the peanut butter issue. At first I was annoyed (I'm the mom with the kids with the life threatening allergies) but then I thought maybe she was using that to demonstrate the lack of actual thoughtfulness that was going into the decisions made by the school regarding the special needs of some kids. Then it made a while lot more sense to me.

Megan wrote: "I’m just so grateful for these challenges because I never would have found out about this book. It was amazing!"

Great! What was your favorite part?