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Hello Everyone,

For the week of January 19th - January 25th, we are reading Part One - 1. Across the Middle Sea - Calypso' Island and The Horses of the Sun and Death of Glory and Part Two The Burning Shore - pages 46-91 - The Day of Battle: The War in Sicily and Italy 1943-1944 by Rick Atkinson.

The second week's reading assignment is:

Week Two - January 19th - January 25th, 2015
Part One - 1. Across the Middle Sea - Calypso' Island and The Horses of the Sun and Death of Glory and Part Two The Burning Shore - pages 46-91

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

This book is being kicked off on January 12th

We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, local bookstore or on your Kindle.

This weekly thread will be opened up on January 19th

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.

Bentley will be leading this discussion and back-up will be Assisting Moderators Bryan, Kathy, Jerome and Jill.

Welcome,

~Bentley

TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL

by Rick Atkinson

REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS - ON EACH WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREAD - WE ONLY DISCUSS THE PAGES ASSIGNED OR THE PAGES WHICH WERE COVERED IN PREVIOUS WEEKS. IF YOU GO AHEAD OR WANT TO ENGAGE IN MORE EXPANSIVE DISCUSSION - POST THOSE COMMENTS IN ONE OF THE SPOILER THREADS. THESE CHAPTERS HAVE A LOT OF INFORMATION SO WHEN IN DOUBT CHECK WITH THE CHAPTER OVERVIEW AND SUMMARY TO RECALL WHETHER YOUR COMMENTS ARE ASSIGNMENT SPECIFIC. EXAMPLES OF SPOILER THREADS ARE THE GLOSSARY, THE BIBLIOGRAPHY, THE INTRODUCTION AND THE BOOK AS A WHOLE THREADS.

Notes:

It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.

Citations:

If an author or book is mentioned other than the book and author being discussed, citations must be included according to our guidelines. Also, when citing other sources, please provide credit where credit is due and/or the link. There is no need to re-cite the author and the book we are discussing however.

If you need help - here is a thread called the Mechanics of the Board which will show you how:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/2...

Introduction Thread:

/topic/show/...

Table of Contents and Syllabus

/topic/show/...

Glossary

Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed.

Glossary - Part One - http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/8...

Glossary - Part Two - http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

Glossary - Part Three - http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

Bibliography

There is a Bibliography where books cited in the text are posted with proper citations and reviews. We also post the books that the author used in his research or in his notes. Please also feel free to add to the Bibliography thread any related books, etc with proper citations. No self promotion, please.

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

Book as a Whole and Final Thoughts - SPOILER THREAD

/topic/show/...

by Rick Atkinson

Directions on how to participate in book discussions and how to follow the t's and c's - look at directives given for the discussion Landslide - What Do I Do Next?

I will modify these directives this week for the trilogy.

/topic/show/...

All, we do not have to do citations regarding the book or the author being discussed during the book discussion on these discussion threads - nor do we have to cite any personage in the book being discussed while on the discussion threads related to this book.

However if we discuss folks outside the scope of the book or another book is cited which is not the book and author discussed then we do have to do that citation according to our citation rules. That makes it easier to not disrupt the discussion.

Everyone, for the week of January 19th- January 25th, we are reading
Part One - 1. Across the Middle Sea - Calypso' Island and The Horses of the Sun and Death of Glory and Part Two The Burning Shore - pages 46-91

The second week’s reading assignment is:

Week Two - January 19th - January 20th
Part One - 1. Across the Middle Sea - Calypso' Island and The Horses of the Sun and Death of Glory and Part Two - The Burning Shore - The Land of the Cyclops - pages 46-91

Chapter Overview and Summary

Part One

1. Across the Middle Sea

Calypso's Island

Malta experiences horrific bombings as it is a strategic port. Ike settles in on Malta and tries to balance the demands of working with allied forces in moving forward the war effort. The Maltese people suffer tremendously from the bombings.

The Horses of the Sun

Part Two

2. The Burning Shore

Land of the Cyclops

We begin this week's reading with Calypso's Island.

"Over the millennia, a great deal had happened on the tiny island the Allies now code-named FINANCE. St. Paul had been shipwrecked on the north coast of Malta in A.D. 60 while en rout to stand trial in Rome for crimes against the state; he preached to the unconverted for three months, then continued on his fateful way. Successive waves of Vandals, Goths, Byzantines, Arabs, and Normans swept behind him, felling forests for farms and herds; the topsoil washed away to expose a parched, rocky know, eight miles by eighteen. Some scholars believed that Malta was the place where the nypph Calypso had imprisoned wandering Odysseus as her love slave for seven years."

"in 1530, Emperor Charles V garrisoned the island with the knights of Saint John of Jerusalem, a monastic order founded during the First Crusade and recently expelled from Rhodes by the Turks, After a siege, the Maltese knights spent years building complex battlements, with bastions and watchtowers and walls as much as thirty feet thick. Britain seized the fortress in 1800, taking also its fine harbor and the island's handsome capital, Valletta, built with ocher stone from local quarries. Most of the quarter million Maltese were illiterate peasants who scratched a living from the thin fields and pastures."

The first of 3,340 Axis air raids struck the island at dawn on June 11, 1940. During the next three years it became the most bombed place on earth, as the enemy tried to blast the British from their only harbor between Gibraltar and Alexandria and to neutralize the Maltese airfields, which expedited attacks on Axis supply convoys to North Africa. Some sixteen thousand tons of bombs fell on the island in attacks of exemplary viciousness: German pilots even heaved hand grenades from their cockpits. Valletta was reduced to cover rubble, then to ocher powder. "Beauty was slain," wrote a Maltese poet, M. Mizzi, "and a great kingdom of terror was set up." More than beauty died: the number of casualties reached fifteen thousand, (Precise figures were elusive because it common for families to conceal a fatality in order to keep drawing the victim's rations.) "Holy Mary," the Maltese prayed, "let the bombs fall in the sea or in the fields."

Background:




Topic for Discussion:
1. What are your impressions of the bombardment of Malta and how Atkinson opens up this chapter?

2. What did you think when you discovered that Malta was the most bombed place on earth at that time?

3. Discuss the strategic importance of Malta to the Allies.

4. Why was Malta at the crux and how had Italy gotten itself into the situation of aligning itself with the Germans?

5. What was there about Eisenhower which made him a better man for the job than other generals and how was he able to get along with the British generals?

6. Why was the capture of Malta an absolute requirement of the Germans?

7. Eisenhower chainsmoking 60 to 70 camels a day was astounding - it is a wonder he did not kill himself with that kind of smoking and that was quite a habit - if he was up for 24 hours - he was still putting away 2-3 an hour and it had to be more than that most days. You have to wonder how he got these supplies. Were you surprised at this?

8. How difficult was the British General Montgomery and what did you think of his rationale and thoughts about HUSKY? And what are your thoughts and opinions regarding HUSKY?

9. How important was Ultra and the work by Ultra cryptologists in decoding German messages? What part do you think they played in Eisenhower's and the Allied successes?

10. There were all sorts of rumors about Kay Summersby - and Ike - what do your think about those rumors and do you think where there is smoke there is fire. Atkinson wrote that Ike was concerned about Mamie and her health and the effect of these rumors. How hard must it have been for a general's wife during that period or any war for that matter?

German Bombing of Malta - WWII, The Siege of Malta, Luftwaffe 32530d HD

This World War II German newsreel was retrieved from a U.S. Navy archive, and is now part of the Periscope Film collection. Made for propaganda purposes during the war by the German newsreel company Degeto Weltspiegel and sold to the home market in Germany, these newsreels provide a fascinating look at the German military. These German newsreels were seized by the U.S. government following the war, and ended up in the collection of the U.S. government.

The Siege of Malta was a military campaign in the Mediterranean Theatre of the Second World War. From 1940-1942, the fight for the control of the strategically important island of Malta pitted the air forces and navies of Italy and Germany against the Royal Air Force and the Royal Navy.

The Axis resolved to bomb or starve Malta into submission, by attacking its ports, towns, cities, and Allied shipping supplying the island. Malta was one of the most intensively bombed areas during the war. The Luftwaffe and the Regia Aeronautica flew a total of 3,000 bombing raids over a period of two years in an effort to destroy RAF defences and the ports. Success would have made possible a combined German—Italian amphibious landing supported by German airborne forces. It was never carried out. In the event, Allied convoys were able to supply and reinforce Malta, while the RAF defended its airspace, though at great cost in material and lives.

This film is part of the Periscope Film LLC archive, one of the largest historic military, transportation, and aviation stock footage collections in the USA.

Source; Entirely film backed, this material is available for licensing in 24p HD. For more information visit

Here is the youtube link:

This film looks Italian
WW2 In Colour Bombing Malta



One of the shot of the pilots looks similar to one in the above film.

In the Glossary - 3 - I have posted a documentary on the Siege of Malta which you might find interesting. It is an hour long. Visit all three glossaries because they have a wealth of information about World War II.

1940 Malta before the bombs fell - Italian

June 18, 1940. Giornale Italie No. 049. The island of Malta, claimed by Italy. Shown are ships of the Royal Navy (probably HMS Warspite, HMS Malaya, and the escort carrier HMS Eagle). An unveiling of a bust in honour of Fortunato Mizzi, founder of the pro-Italian movement on Malta.

Interesting footage



Malta in 1933 b&w.wmv (English)

Interesting to see Malta before it was resorted to rubble from the bombings.

All, please begin the discussion of any of the topics outlined in message 4. You may also discuss anything else in the chapters up through page 90 or before.

What are your thoughts on this week's reading assignment?

Here is an interesting article about Malta which you might enjoy: (it does discuss some of the religious history of Malta) which Atkinson alluded to in the beginning of the chapter for this week's reading:

Beneath Malta’s Beauty, a Tangled History



Source: The New York Times

Ultra was exceptionally important to the allied victory. This program enabled the allies to read vast numbers of German communiques. In fact, later in the war the Germans were able to get as far as they did in one campaign (don't want to spoil it) because they held radio silence. The allied response...if Ultra isn't saying anything then our other intelligence sources must be seeing issues where there aren't any. It amazes me that the Germans or the Japanese for that matter did not catch on to the fact that the Allies were reading their mail.

I thought the same thing Michael. How did they not know or suspect. Ultra was critical in these campaigns as you so aptly point out. Communications were not as sophisticated as they are today so maybe some things went unnoticed and they attributed the Allied's good fortune or fortuitous maneuvers to be coincidence or good luck. But still hard to fathom.

Ok folks I am moving on with the next chapter in this week's reading assignment but I just want you to know that you can discuss anything in this week's reading assignment up through page 90 or anything from last week's assignment. And if you want to talk spoilers - we have the Book as a Whole thread where you can start an ad hoc conversation if you like about other events or topics on World War II.

Here is the link:
/topic/show/...

On this thread however just up to page 90.

Just dive right in and get the conversation going. We have 58 readers here so just be brave (smile).

"The Horses of the Sun�� - let us begin.

Invasion of Sicily Newsreel (Operation HUSKY - July 1943)



Source: Youtube

This appears to be a propaganda film. (smile) - Rick Atkinson had chosen this film to be on his web site for the timeline of this book.

In the beginning, I read about how Monty was marketing his Sicily plan to Ike. Monty even fogged up a bathroom mirror to illustrate his idea - a scene I remember from the movie "Patton."

In the end, he got the plan. It might be another example of how the British still had a large influence on planning on this phase of the war.

I think you make a very good point - I have to rewatch that movie to see that scene again.

There were some unequal partnerships but the British did carry a lot of weight.

So the invasion of Sicily here. Not many notes yet just a few observations.

1) Why did Eisenhower accept (pg. 54) Montgomery’s plan? But the two Naval guys Hewitt and Cunningham did not agree �� why?
2) I noticed there was aboard the vessels in the terrible storm lots of God seeking during the seasickness of the turbulent crossing and into the invasion boats.
3) And pg. 71 Para 2 �� the observations “seasickness and fear make an interesting combination�� a medic observed “they vie for dominance��
4) Also of interest is the know discrimination but documented on pg. 81 �� last para. In recruiting Rangers “white�� is one of the requirements.

I will get to reading others comments soon

Thanks

A major question Vince - Why do you think that Ike accepted Montgomery's plan - was it Churchill pressure with FDR? Was Ike told to do that? Of did he agree with Montgomery?

At that time I am sure that discrimination was an issue.

Bentley, I get a sense that we gave Britain some deference, maybe stemming from multiple causes like the two country's history, the Battle of Britain, Churchill & FDR's relationship, British military expertise, and probably more.

I agree that there was a "special relationship" even then. But I was also wondering what other folks like Vince thought were the reasons or were there books and articles which told the backroom story which folks would also find interesting.

You do make a great point Bryan. And Britain had been investing - blood sweat and tears in terms of what they sacrificed and endured in their homeland.

Bentley wrote: "I agree that there was a "special relationship" even then. But I was also wondering what other folks like Vince thought were the reasons or were there books and articles which told the backroom st..."

I do believe Ike had lived with making the coalition work. Maybe he had spent too long in London where there was much other power that was in place.

Monty, and the Brits, were more battle tested and Monty aggressive and Ike may have feared what if a plan overturning Montgomery's position failed.

I think by D-Day (June 44) that Ike knew he was the boss.

The golden rule, he who has the gold makes the rules, and by then American forces were proven and there was a greater percentage of troop gold from America and always an overwhelming presence of the American industrial and agricultural might that made it possible for the Allies to continue fighting as effectively as they did.

Well said, Vince, the Americans had to prove themselves.

Vince some great comments. Ike had to also walk a fine line and that must have been very difficult and political as well.

I think politics is a constant thorn in the military's side.

Increasingly I believe - or maybe I am naive.

What struck me regarding the invasion was 1) the complete lack of close air support from the Allied Air Forces and 2) the complete ineptitude of the of the training for the airborne assault.

You have to wonder what they were able to do and when they were able to do it.

Mike wrote: "What struck me regarding the invasion was 1) the complete lack of close air support from the Allied Air Forces and 2) the complete ineptitude of the of the training for the airborne assault."

I agree. Especially LADBROOKE. Ridiculous what the men in the airborne assults were asked to do with so little training.

It also seems the whole attack succeed in spite of numerous tactical failures. Had the Italians been better prepared or German forces in those areas, the landings would have been doomed.

After witnessing the airborne disaster, it makes you wonder if Montgomery thought back to Sicily when planning what would be Operation Market Garden.

I agree that if resistance had been even slightly stronger the landings may have been a disaster.

Yes, the landings did not go well or as planned.

Mike wrote: "After witnessing the airborne disaster, it makes you wonder if Montgomery thought back to Sicily when planning what would be Operation Market Garden.

I agree that if resistance had been even sligh..."

I do not thing Sicily was on Montgomery's mind at all when he planned Market Garden or Market Garden would have been carried out much differently. My opinion of course and I will confess I am not a fan of Monty.

I would agree with you, Michael. But I do think Sicily taught the Allies that the Germans tended to try to avoid close-quarters combat with them--the Americans would perfect this technique in the Normandy campaign to the Germans' detriment.

I think North Africa bloodied the Americans. In Sicily they went to school and added to the knowledge base that would be essential in future campaigns and I believe the began to innovate. As the Americans navigated the learning curve I think it also revitalized the allied forces that had been in it since 1940. The British and Commonwealth troops got a second wind and began to feel the relief of having more troops in the fight.

Folks this is the whole syllabus:

The Syllabus for:

The Day of Battle: The War in Sicily and Italy 1943-1944

Week One - January 12th - January 18th 2015
Prologue and Part One-1.Across the Middle Sea -Forcing the World Back to Reason - pages 1-46

Week Two - January 19th - January 25th
Part One - 1. Across the Middle Sea - Calypso' Island and The Horses of the Sun and Death of Glory and Part Two The Burning Shore - pages 46-91

Week Three - January 26th - February 1st
Part One -2 The Burning Shore - The Land of the Cyclops and The Loss of Irrecoverable Hours and "Tonight Wear White Pajamas" and "The Dark World is Not Far From Us" - pages 91-121

Week Four - February 2nd - Februrary 8th
Part One -3. An Island Redoubt - "Into Battle with Stout Hearts" and How I Love Wars and Snaring the Head Devil and Fevers of an Unknown Origin and A Great Grief and In A Place Like This - pages 125-175

Week Five - February 9th - February - 15th
Part Two -4.- Salerno - “Risks Must Be Calculated" and Plots, Counterplots, and Cross-plots and The Stillest Shoes the World Could Boast and The Moan of Lost Souls - pages 179-227

Week Six - February 16th - February 22rd
Part Two - 4.Salerno - A Portal Win and Part Two- 5. Corpse of the Siren- "I Give You Naples and "Watch Where You Step and Have No Curiosity at All" and The Mountainous Hinterland - pages 227-263

Week Seven - February 23rd - March 1st
Part Two - 5. Corpse of the Siren - The Mountainous Hinterland and "The Entire World Was Burning" and Part Two - 6. Winter - The Archangel Michael, Here and Everywhere - pages 265-293

Week Eight - March 2nd - March 8th
Part Two - 6. Winter - "A Tank Too Big for the Village Square" and A Gangster's Battle and Too Many Gone West - pages 293-318

Week Nine - March 9th - March 15th
Part Three - 7. A River and a Rock - Colonel Warden Makes a Plan and "Nothing Was Right Except the Courage" - pages 322-350

Week Ten - March 16th -March 22nd
Part Three - 7. A River and a Rock - The Show Must Go On - and 8. Perdition - “Something's Happening" and Through the Looking Glass - pages 351-385

Week Eleven - March 23rd - March 29th
Part Three - 8. Perdition - Jerryland and 9. The Murder Space -This World and the Next World at Strife - pages 385-412

Week Twelve - March 30th - April 5th
Part Three - 9. The Murder Space - The Bitchhead and "Man Is Distinguished from the Beasts" - pages 412-441

Week Thirteen - April 6th - April 12th
Part Four - 10 Four Horsemen - A Fairyland of Silver and Gold and The Weight of Metal - pages 445 - 473

Week Fourteen - April 13th - April 19th
Part Four - 10. Four Horsemen - Dragonflies in the Sun and 11. A Kettle of Grief - Dead Country and "Put the Fear of God into Them" and "You Are All Brave. You Are All Gentlemen" - pages 473-509

Week Fifteen - April 20th - April 26th
Part Four - 11. A Kettle of Grief - "On the Eve of Great Things" and 12. The Great Prize - Shaking Stars from the Heavens - pages 509-536

Week Sixteen - April 27th - May 3rd
Part Four - 12. The Great Prize - A Fifth Army Show - pages 536-555

Week Seventeen - May 4th - May 10th
Part Four - 12. The Great Prize - The Cuckoo's Song and Expulsion of the Barbarians - pages 555-576

Week Eighteen - May 11th - May 17th
Epilogue - pages 577-588

Week Nineteen - May 18th - 24th
Book as a Whole and Final Thoughts

Bentley wrote: "A major question Vince - Why do you think that Ike accepted Montgomery's plan - was it Churchill pressure with FDR? Was Ike told to do that? Of did he agree with Montgomery?

At that time I am su..."

Since you asked regarding other books, I found Carlo D'Este 's "Bitter Victory " gave a good, detailed account of Sicily.

No "one" really in charge of planning, Montgomery "was horrified" when he first heard the details of the orginal Husky plans, Churchill did push, and when Eisenhower began voicing pessimism, "the Combined Chiefs ... rebuked Eisenhower by stating that under no circumstances would they consider abandoning Husky" (87).

by Carlo D'Este

Adelle wrote: "Bentley wrote: "A major question Vince - Why do you think that Ike accepted Montgomery's plan - was it Churchill pressure with FDR? Was Ike told to do that? Of did he agree with Montgomery?

At t..."

Thanks Adelle - so I have gotten a sample of the book on my Kindle now - but I am so back logged and pickup up his Patton at a church sale the other day and a Churchill Biography at a library excess book sale but I will try to get to it - but likely not.

Carlo D'Este

Roy Jenkins

Vincent, the author's photo comes before the author's link.

by Carlo D'Este

by Roy Jenkins