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We're starting off the new year of 2021 with a classic from the New Age (1960-1979) Babel-17 by Samuel R. Delany.

Delany is a high profile & influential SF author. You can read more about him on his Wikipedia page here:

I just started reading the Kindle copy I found for Babel-17 but it didn't seem like the right novel. Apparently what I am reading is Empire Star which is included in some editions of Babel-17. Should i be reading Empire star before reading Babel-17? I'm not sure how they are connected.

I just have Babel 17 in my copy. But I think you should read Empire star first. Here on GR you can find: "For the first time, Babel-17 is published as the author intended with the short novel Empire Star..."
So I guess they belong together.

Leo wrote: "I just have Babel 17 in my copy. But I think you should read Empire star first. Here on GR you can find: "For the first time, Babel-17 is published as the author intended with the short novel Empir..."

Thanx! Wonder if I've ever read ES? I have (or had) the mmpb 1st with just B-17. Wonder if he intended that allusion? B-17 = Flying Fortress, early WW2: first flight 22 July 1935. I've seen the Cover Girl flying: (based in Chino, but saw in Tucson @ their big sir show years ago).

Leo wrote: "I just have Babel 17 in my copy. But I think you should read Empire star first. Here on GR you can find: "For the first time, Babel-17 is published as the author intended with the short novel Empir..."

Thanks. I'm halfway through Empire Star so I should finish it before I start Babel-17. It's not very long, may just be a novella. I wonder if Delaney was making some connection between the two such as different times or places but in the same universe.

According to some reviews I just read, the characters in Babel-17 are aware of the book Empire Star. It is a popular book in their universe. In the real world, he wrote it afterwards, in a period of 10 days.

I re-read Babel-17 last year with another group, so I doubt I'll re-read it here. But maybe I will. I dislike the main theme of the story (the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis taken to an extreme) but Delaney is very thoughtful guy and packs multiple meanings into everything, so maybe I could benefit from a third read. Anyway, I'll definitely read Empire Star.

I'm at 1/4. Not much adventure happened. But we are thrown straight into a strange future society in which not everything is clear at once. And the writing style is also special, making me read some parts twice. No explanation yet for the name Babel-17.
This construction with Empire Star is a strange one, I am going to see if I can find a copy.

Ed wrote: " I dislike the main theme of the story (the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis taken to an extreme) but Delaney is very thoughtful guy and packs multiple meanings into everything..."

I have a copy of B-17, but only reread it once for the same reason. Is ES online, by chance?

It's a quick read. I think the book is not for me. I don't have anything special with language. Reading the story, I had all kinds of questions but I stopped wondering halfway and just read on. But in the end I still don't get the main line of the things that happend. No big deal. Indeed in the story, Empire Star is mentioned twice, it's a funny construction that the author wrote that too.

The best thing for me about the book is this: "Rush drummer and lyricist Neil Peart noted that Babel-17 was one of his early literary influences, and was an important part of the crafting of the band's hugely successful 2112 album."

Leo wrote: ""Rush drummer and lyricist Neil Peart noted that Babel-17 was one of his early literary influences, and was an important part of the crafting of the band's hugely successful 2112 album."

Huh. I don't think I've ever (consciously) listened to that group. Unless they're so sfnal, I have to wait until 2112 to check them out?

ha, it's never too late to discover great music Peter. My children only just discovered The Beatles. I really like Rush but as with books, tastes differ! Neal Peart passed away last year, maybe you should not wait until 2112.

For whom is really curious:

For me, an issue with Delaney's work, especially B-17, is the scientific plausibility of his world building is ignored so he can make an artistic point, create a symbol or literary reference. There's an awful lot of head-scratchers in this short book. I say, "That doesn't make the slightest bit of sense scientifically." Delaney seems to say, "But artistically, I'm getting the point or mood across..."

I enjoy Delaney's storytelling, but his science never wows.

Leo wrote: "I just have Babel 17 in my copy. But I think you should read Empire star first. Here on GR you can find: "For the first time, Babel-17 is published as the author intended with the short novel Empir..."
I found it interesting that in Babel-17 the events of Empire Star and Comet Jo were referred to as stories written by the character who became Lump (forgot his name) and not real events. .

Ed wrote: "According to some reviews I just read, the characters in Babel-17 are aware of the book Empire Star. It is a popular book in their universe. In the real world, he wrote it afterwards, in a period o..."
I agree that the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis was taken to an extreme especially the way it is considered by linguists today. But this is SF and taking a current concept to an extreme to see what happens is just one of the many techniques used.

Leo wrote: "I'm at 1/4. Not much adventure happened. But we are thrown straight into a strange future society in which not everything is clear at once. And the writing style is also special, making me read som..."
The first thing I noticed was the writing style. I am a big fan of classic SF and do most of my reading and re-re-reading from that period so the stylistic impact was impressive. Usually I found the overt attempt to be stylistic and "literary" following the start of the New Wave to be pretentious and not adding much to the stories that relied heavily on it. But I think Delaney got it just right. He is telling a story that is part classic SF and part New Wave and blends it seamlessly.

I just finished Babel-17 and found the story interesting and intriguing for the first 9/10's but the ending was a major letdown being done too quickly and seeming rather mundane after the events that led up to it.

Dan wrote: "For me, an issue with Delany's work, especially B-17, is the scientific plausibility of his world building is ignored so he can make an artistic point, create a symbol or literary reference. ..."

For hard science, yeah, he doesn't stick to plausibility. That doesn't bother me much. Like many stories proposing travel through "hyperspace" or "subspace" or having "teleporters", I just go with it. It's only a story.

For social sciences, Delany is well-read and tries to make use of ideas that are (or were) current from writers such as Derida and Foucault. I think many of those ideas are garbage, but most of that goes over my head anyway.

I like some other books by Delany. And I hate some of them (mostly the porn). This one doesn't do much for me.

Jim wrote: "... taking a current concept to an extreme to see what happens is just one of the many techniques used. ..."

Fair enough. But in this case I am not able to suspend my disbelief.

I like some parts of this story, but not the story overall.

Ed: What works by Delaney do you recommend?

Dan wrote: "Ed: What works by Delaney do you recommend?"

I don't like to do recommendations. But some of his SF work that I have personally liked includes Trouble on Triton: An Ambiguous Heterotopia and Stars in My Pocket Like Grains of Sand. ("Stars..." was supposed to be part one of a two-part series, but it is pretty clear that will never actually happen, and it is OK.)

I greatly enjoyed the Fantasy (sword/sorcery type) book ���𱹱����ó�Բ�, though one of the later books in the series really went off the rails for me.

The recent novella The Atheist in the Attic is an interesting historical fiction about a meeting between Spinoza and Leibniz. But it isn't an easy read.

Also many of his short stories touched me. But that was 25 years ago, so don't ask for specifics!

Even for the works I liked, I can't claim to have understood everything, and don't care!

BTW: I find critical studies on SF to be very tough reading and not very interesting. Your mileage may vary.

The Einstein Intersection is the only book by Delany that I've liked, but it's one of my top ten of all times.

I've just started this, and so far the insta-love of the general has me rolling my eyes. I know this happens to some people, but as a middle aged man wouldn't he have more awareness that hormones happen and a grip on knowing that that's all it is that's happening? (Sigh)

I think my favorite Delany is his "The Star Pit" (1967), which was nominated for the Hugo for Best Novella in the following year. It's been many years since I last read it, but in essence it's a blue-collar story of a starship mechanic who takes in a stray & trains him in the trade. Good, straightforward period SF. Many reprints:

There is an old MP3 of a 1967 radio broadcast:

I've read this book recently and just like with The Einstein Intersection, I see that his prose is interesting, but it doesn't work for me.

Agreed. He's too obviously in love with his own ideas, and there is no internal plausibility to the story.

I liked the main idea behind b-17 and the way it's written. I believe if he didn't made the stylistic choice to write in the way it is written (quite literary I think) it would not have the impact it has. I think the world building itself is nothing special but the way it is presented that the reader is thrown in without much knowledge is good. I like the feeling that I generally knew what is going on but there was this vagueness in everything that I couldn't really understand unless go further.
I think the major flaw of it was the storyline which is lacking in my opinion. I think if you take away the language and the way the novel is presented what remains is a linear and somewhat bland storyline.

This is my first time reading Delany's work. His prose requires some getting used to. I'm about 3/4 through. Delany has some deep ideas about language, but the story thus far hasn't been particularly gripping.

Taseen wrote: " Delany has some deep ideas about language, but "

He was using the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, which was respectable then, but thoroughly discredited now:
Would still be fine for fiction, of course....

Rydra strikes me as an archetypal manic pixie dreamgirl.

Shant wrote: "I liked the main idea behind b-17 and the way it's written. I believe if he didn't made the stylistic choice to write in the way it is written (quite literary I think) it would not have the impact ..."

There is a lack of internal consistency--which is something I find in all the Delaney works I have read. I agree with the ambiguity of events spurring the reader, too. Delaney creates such zany landscapes and outlier characters I want to understand the logic of the novel's world. Many times the logic is "there is no logic," and that's when I have to decide whether to accept it or not. I find that I often do.

I just finished up the book today. The ending was a bit underwhelming, although it did tie up all the loose ends. The prose is great once you get into it. That is something I liked about the book. But the plot just did not engage me.

Kellie wrote: "Rydra strikes me as an archetypal manic pixie dreamgirl."

Hee hee. Did you ever see this one? [looks]
" Utopia, LOL?" by Jamie Wahls,
"How was the elf-sex?"
Won the Nebula in 2018!

Bonus: "A Long Spoon"
by Jonathan L. Howard,
Well. Not exactly a pixie dream-girl. BUT:
The devil was looking at him in astonishment. “Are you trying to bind me? You are, aren’t you? You’re trying to bind me!�� The expression gave way to a flirtatious wink. “You naughty boy.�� ....

“I haven’t been summoned in a very long time, and I’m bored. Whatever you want me to do, it had better be interesting. Also, it would be lovely to kill a few people. So . . . yes, those are my demands: murder and fun.��

Cabal paused on a step and looked back at her. “Against all common sense, I’m beginning to like you,�� he said.

“Even though I’m a devil and I have a lot of legs and I devour the souls of my prey through the expedient of lethal orgasms?��

“I’m still waiting for you to raise a bad point.��

She slapped him lightly on the back. “You charmer!��

Yesterday I got from the library the edition that has Empire Star included. That is a short novella and I read it in one sitting.

It is much more fun than Babel-17. Basically an adventure story. There are some serious ideas at play, but they don't bog down the story. In the end it turns into a recursive timey-wimey story like Heinlein's "All you zombies" or the The Book of the New Sun. People you think are different characters are actually the same person at a different points in their time-line. For once that gimmick didn't bother me. (Some reviews even suggest that the name "Severian" in the Book of the New Sun was a nod to "San Severina" in this book.)

One irritating thing is that in the beginning the main character speaks in a way that is hard to understand. It is supposed to represent a non-standard ('hick') way of speaking. Luckily that stops after a while: "If you don't improve your diction, you will lose your entire audience before page forty. I suggest you apply yourself because you are in for quite an exciting time, and it would be rather sad if everyone abandoned you halfway through because of your atrocious grammar and pronunciation."

I almost gave it 5 stars, and may read it a second time before returning the book.

... and when I started reading it I asked myself how many pages I'd have to read before finding a character who bites his nails. The answer was two. So we got that Delany cliché out of the way early!

Ed wrote: "... and when I started reading it I asked myself how many pages I'd have to read before finding a character who bites his nails. The answer was two. So we got that Delany cliché out of the way early!"

How many licks to get to the center of a tootsie pop? Sorry, just popped into my head. I hadn't realized that was one of his things. I remember that Lobey bites his toe nails in "The Einstein Intersection", but he uses his feet for hands fairly often.

Delany finds chewed nails attractive. They show up in most of his books.

I have never quite read a novel like this one before, clearly, there are two clear threads running through it.

The first thread is a broad-ranging classic science fiction story, with some interesting worlds and characters, it was well enough put together to hold my attention throughout.

The second thread was the general concept of the Sapir–Whorf hypothesis, a concept I had never heard of before, I did a little reading up on it and I find it has been somewhat discredited.

I am saving the Sapir-Worf hypothesis to drop into the conversation the next time I find myself intellectually browbeaten!

Last night I read a nice SF comic Planet Paradise. The lead character is a non-white woman named Rydra-17. I think that must be a nod to Rydra Wong from this book, though there is no other connection.

I just watched a documentary about the band Rush. This book was mentioned. Apparently the album 2112 was partly inspired both by this book and "Anthem" by Ayn Rand. In this book there is a character who doesn't understand personal pronouns. In Anthem, singular pronouns like "I" and "she", are prohibited. I doubt there is much more connection than that between the Rush album and Babel-17.