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Hello Everyone,

Welcome to the historical fiction discussion of Master and Commander by Patrick O'Brian.

This is the reading assignment for week eight - (June 21st, 2010 to June 27th, 2010)

Chapter Eight - pages 272 - 308

This is the second historical fiction group selected book.

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers if you are catching up.

This book was kicked off on May 3rd.

This discussion is being led by assisting moderator of historical fiction - Elizabeth S.

We always enjoy the participation of all group members. Amazon, Barnes and Noble and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, or on your Kindle.

This thread opens up Monday, June 21st for discussion. This is a non spoiler thread.

Welcome,

~Bentley


TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL

Patrick O'Brian

The Sophie finally picks up Stephen, and immediately Jack sounds out his troubles on him. Stephen mentions some of the rumors he heard while in Spain, including how dangerous the Sophie is considered. While changing the look of the Sophie in hopes of gaining one more prize on this cruise, Dillon has his turn to discuss his troubles. What with Dillon's stress and the shortage of midshipmen, there crew of the Sophie is feeling a lot of emotional strain. While looking for another prize to take, then run into a Spanish frigate. Jack pulls every trick he can think of to persuade them that the Sophie is harmless, but when the Spanish send a boat to check them out, it takes Stephen's mention of the plague to send them away. Again, the whole ship is grateful for their surgeon.

Back at Mahon, Jack is under fire for leaving the 50 prisoners on an island. Only because Jack is "lucky" does Lord Keith assign him another cruise, after an errand to Alexandria. Stephen observes mantis mating, and Jack asks him for help with his wig. Jack then takes Stephen with him to the Hartes for a dinner party. Stephen makes many interesting observations to himself. Mr. Ellis, the financial adviser for the Hartes, has a son who hopes to go to sea. Jack agrees to give him a try.

Going back to the idea of the isolation of command, I found these lines, where Jack was thinking about asking Stephen to join him for a chat and some music, quite telling:

"Where there was no equality there was no companionship: when a man was obliged to say 'Yes, sir', his agreement was of no worth even if it happened to be true. He had known these things all his service life: they were perfectly evident: but he had never thought they would apply so fully, and to him."

There has been quite a bit about the loneliness of command. And some of it Jack likes. He likes to be the one to make the decisions. He doesn't mind discussing it with others, to some extent. But he is careful to not give away any of his authority in the discussion. For an example, in the last chapter when Dillon has a suggestion and Jack replies he'll hear it as long as it doesn't turn into "a council of war" (see page 230).

And yet Jack does miss the easy comradeship that comes with others of one's own rank. I think that is a lot of what he misses when Stephen is gone, because Stephen is the closest to an equal on board. And Jack does enjoy explaining his decisions and sharing his "wisdom" with others. Now that Stephen has started to learn about sea-life and doesn't have as many questions, that relationship with Jack is changing some. And Jack feels it.

My very favorite part of this chapter was when the Sophie has a cold-battle (as in "cold-war") with the Cacafuego. It seems to me that one of Jack's strengths is having his ship act like something else. I am impressed with the details of Jack's subterfuge. He has the men "heave to awkwardly" (page 290, emphasis added). Jack even murmurs his orders, knowing that the officers were watching through telescopes. Doesn't he think of everything?!

And then Stephen's little addition. Oh, how clever. And because we saw the Sophie's reaction to a plague ship earlier, we are ready to understand the Cacafuego's response. This is the kind of stuff where I like Jack and Stephen best. What fun!

Elizabeth I also enjoyed Stephen having the quick wit to remember how Captains act when confronted with the plague. His actions probably saved everyone on board's life.

Like the crew, Jack has now completed his first tour in command. I have a felling he will better copy with the loneliness of command better as time goes on.

I also loved the plague ship ruse. Though it was intresting to see Dillions reaction when they did not spring a suprise broadside on the Cacafuego.

I think Jack and Stephen's relationship is starting to change as well. Could this be from the novelty for Jack having Stephen onboard wearing off, or is it due to the fact that Jack is now starting to see Stephen more as a member of his crew.

Did anyone else enjoy the section of this chapter with Jack & Stephen at Molly Harte's party where they meet the Ellises. I liked Stephens’s description of the husband:

"Her husband was a tall, moist-eyed, damp-handed man, with a meek, Evangelical expression, and knock-knees: had it not been for those knees he would have looked exactly like a butler. 'If that man lives,' reflected Stephen, as Laetitia prattled on about Plato, 'he will become a miser: but it is more likely that he will hang himself. Costive; piles; flat feet'."

I also liked further down the page this exchange between the dinner guests:

"...'But I don't understand - you are a real physician, he tells me, so how come you to be in the Navy? How come you to be in the Navy if you are a real doctor?'
'Indigence, ma'am, indigence. For all that clysters is not gold, on shore. And then, of course, a fervid desire to bleed for my country'."

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I also liked further down the page this exchange between the dinner guests:

"...'But I don't understand - you are a real physician, he tells me, so how come you to be in the Navy? How come you t..."

Yes, that dry - parched really - humor of O'Brian.

O'Brian does have an interesting sense of humor, and he uses it well with his characters. Another thing I find funny about Stephen is how he analyzes people. He is a really people watcher. And he includes their medical conditions (costive, piles, flat feet) in his mental observations in the same way that I would include that someone is tall/short or has long/short hair.

That was certainly an interesting dinner party.

Question for you all. On page 304 it says, "Mr. Ellis was clearly very much at home in Captain Harte's house, for without having to ask he way he walked to the sidebaord, opened the lead-lined door and took out the chamber-pot, and looking over his shoulder he went on without a pause to state that fortunately the lower classes naturally looked up to gentlemen and love them..."

Did he, uh, really do what I think he did? From the way it was written, it seems that it wasn't exactly common social behavior, but also not the most unheard of practice either. It is one of those things that the history books don't discuss as often as it happens.

Elizabeth, I wondered the exact same thing. Did he just walk into the other room and relieve himself?

I hate to admit, the first thing that came to my mind when I read that was a certain scene in Mel Brooks "History of the World Part II"

Rodney wrote: "Elizabeth, I wondered the exact same thing. Did he just walk into the other room and relieve himself?

I hate to admit, the first thing that came to my mind when I read that was a certain scene in..."

I don't think it was another room.

I would say he was answering the call of nature

Men, what can you say eh Elizabeth!

I love the humour in the situation and the statement; "...and looking over his shoulder he went on without a pause to state that fortunately the lower classes naturally looked up to gentlemen and love them..."

Okay, at least it wasn't just me! Gotta say that it would make a most interesting scene in a movie.

Couple of other fun things from this chapter:

On page 300, when Jack invites Stephen to come to the dinner party, Stephen replies with excitement "as though the meal had just been invented." What a great way to put it!

I also liked the description of what Stephen saw when he dropped his napkin and went under the table. (Anyone else reminded of the movie What's Up Doc?) "He beheld four and twenty legs, six belonging to the table and eighteen to his temporary messmates" (page 303). And then there was the observation that all the legs were not evenly spaced...

I also enjoyed the comment Jack made to Stephen upon the dinner invite about not weaing his infamous three quarter boots.

Michael wrote: "I also enjoyed the comment Jack made to Stephen upon the dinner invite about not weaing his infamous three quarter boots."

Actually, I didn't get that one. What was wrong with Stephen's boots? Just not navy-ish? Why did Jack think they should be soled with lead?

I should have asked this one earlier in the week so we had more time to discuss it, but here goes anyway.

What do you all think of Jack as commander/captain? Lord Keith seems unimpressed. He doesn't like Jack's lack of discipline, "undue independence," drunkenness, etc. (page 295). Creativity doesn't sit well when you must operate your ship as part of a battle plan with other ships. Lord Keith seems to think Jack's one redeeming quality is luck. In what ways do you agree or disagree?

I know that superstition played a huge role in how sailors thought during this era, the therefore his "luck" would make him somewhat effective to the brass.

Overall, my opinion would be qualified. He's had success, seems dedicated to training and drill, and is aggressive. Those are traits that lead to effective battle abilities. He still seems to be learning how to relate/order his crew. Only experience is going to help there.

I tend to agree with Rodney's comments above. Also the Royal Navy tended to tolerate commanders who had success even when they didn't stick to the plan but acted independently but only, only, when they had success (Nelson's blind-eye).

Ohhh, I forgot to mention my favorite part of this chapter, when Jack is out-of-sorts and so orders his midshipmen to write letters to their fathers. Including young Mr. Ricketts, whose father is the purser on the Shopie! Really cracked me up.