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Hello Everyone,

Welcome to the second week of discussion for Enemies: A History of the FBI.

The second week's reading assignment is:

Week Two - June 11th - June 17th :

Chapters FIVE, SIX, SEVEN, EIGHT p. 33 - 70
FIVE - "Who is Mr. Hoover?", SIX - Underworlds, SEVEN - "They never stopped watching us", and EIGHT - Red Flags

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

This book kicked off on June 4th. We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Borders and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, or on your Kindle/Nook. We offer a special thank you to Random House for their generosity.

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.

Bryan will be leading this discussion.

Welcome,

~Bentley & Bryan

TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL

Tim Weiner

Notes:

It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.

Citations

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If you need help - here is a thread called the Mechanics of the Board which will show you how:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/2...

Glossary

Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed.

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/8...

Bibliography

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http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/8...

Q&A with Tim

Please as you are reading post questions to the author's Q&A thread because Tim Weiner will be looking in periodically and will be posting answers to your questions and will be available for a chat. We are very fortunate that he is making time to spend with us.

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/8...

Tim Weiner

Chapter Overviews and Summaries

Chapter Five: "Who is Mr. Hoover?"

Hoover continued to compile names from undercover Bureau agents, local law enforcement, intelligence officers, and citizens. On January 2, 1920, the biggest raid was conducted in history, up to 6 to 10,000 people were rounded up. The Communist Party went underground. However, public sentiment was turning against this kind of raid. In Boston, Hoover witnessed a court case where the judge ruled the raids lawless and unconstitutional. Assistant Secretary of Labor and head of the Bureau of Immigration, Louis Post, also threw out a thousand deportation cases and dismissed many cases stemming from the raid. In response, Hoover began a file on Post to remove him from office. The House investigated Post and Hoover prepared AG Palmer for the hearing. Palmer explained about the Communist threat, but Post saved his job, and these threats never materialized.

Hoover disavowed his involvement in the raids and became head of the General Intelligence Division. On September 16, 1920, the Wall Street Bombings occurred, killing 38 people. Hoover was in charge of the investigation, but no suspects were found.

Chapter Six: Underworlds

President Harding entered office, but he was not a strong president. Harding's friend, Harry Daugherty, became Attorney General, and Daugherty's friend, William J. Burns, became director of the Bureau. Burns brought his own private corrupt detectives on the payroll. Hoover placed informants in radical organizations, including the Communist Party. Informants were at the high-level Communist Party meetings at Woodstock, New York and Bridgman, Michigan. Labor strikes continued and Daugherty got an injunction barring striking, picketing, and assembling by striking railway workers in 1922. The strike collapsed.

Daugherty began to investigate U.S. senators with wire taps and break-ins. The political climate changed when Harding suddenly died. Calvin Coolidge was in office and fired Daugherty. The new AG, Harlan Stone, fired Burns and Hoover became interim director.

Chapter Seven: "They never stopped watching us"

The president of the ACLU, Roger Baldwin, presented Stone with a report detailing the illegal activities of the Bureau. Hoover responded he would shut down the General Intelligence Division (but keep the files), and focus only on law enforcement, not political espionage. He was able to investigate Communists, but only because there was a line in a law giving the Bureau power to investigate official matters at the State Department. As now director, Hoover cleaned up the Bureau.

Chapter Eight: Red Flags

The Great Depression began, boosting the Communist Party. Hoover testified before the House that he needed a law for political espionage or banning Communism, but Congress did not act. It didn't stop Hoover from spying. He investigated veterans behind the Bonus March. When FDR became president, Hoover dodged a bullet when the AG-designate Thomas Walsh might fire Hoover, but Walsh suddenly died. Homer Cummings took office and focused on organized crime. Hoover became front page news as he was the face of famous investigations into Dillinger, Baby Face Nelson, Pretty Boy Floyd, and others. The Bureau had a crime lab, carried guns, and executed warrants. They also could investigate racketeering charges. In 1935, the Bureau's name changed to the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

I'm seeing one thing Hoover understands well: publicity. He feeds the press and sends reports to Congress about the dangers of Communism.

How effective do you think this is for Hoover?

I found it interesting on pg. 45 where Tim Weiner mentioned ““Hoover now intended to cover “not only the radical activities in the United States�� but also those “of an international nature,�� and not only radical politics, but “economic and industrial disturbances�� as well.”��

It is interesting. Do you think it was a way to expand his power, or was it a way to fill in the gap that local police could not handle?

Bryan wrote: "It is interesting. Do you think it was a way to expand his power, or was it a way to fill in the gap that local police could not handle?"

I suppose both. Hoover certainly craved power and the issues and concerns certainly would have kept his team very busy.

If Hoover controlled the FBI today, I wonder if he would have dug deeper into the white collar corruption with companies such as Enron, and also more actively perused mortgage fraud and economic related cases associated with Acorn, large banking institutions and Wall Street.

Hoover might have reached too far at times, but certainly his reputation and forceful intimidation was also a method of crime prevention.

Mark wrote: "If Hoover controlled the FBI today, I wonder if he would have dug deeper into the white collar corruption with companies such as Enron, and also more actively perused mortgage fraud and economic re..."

You bring up a good point. So, AG Stone says to Hoover, I want you to do more criminal investigations, not just pursue Communists. So, Hoover seemed to have expanded the FBI into white collar crime. Then Prohibition kept him busy.

Hoover is a great example of how a director can create the path an organization goes into. One level: bootleggers, the other: Communists.

Mark wrote: "I found it interesting on pg. 45 where Tim Weiner mentioned ““Hoover now intended to cover “not only the radical activities in the United States�� but also those “of an international nature,�� and no..."

I probably don't understand how these agencies work, but doesn't the FBI handle only domestic stuff and the CIA gets all the international stuff?

I’m happy to see that there were people like Attorney Francis Fisher Kane and Judge Anderson (p.37) that were disgusted with what was going on and also brave enough to come forward. I wonder if they were afraid that they would be deemed communist if they came forward?

Amazed by the passage on pages 44-45. There are no spoilers allowed, so someone will have to tell me if I have gone too far, but for America’s leaders in justice to lie before a judge like that was very disturbing to me. Did no one dig further into this and try to figure out who was behind it if not those to men?

Just so I'm clear, can we talk about anything between pages 33-70 here or would that be a spoiler?

Another question: There seems to be a lot about the Red Scare covered here in this book. Will the author move on to other topics related to the FBI soon? DM me if you don't want to spoil it for others!

Jason wrote: "I’m happy to see that there were people like Attorney Francis Fisher Kane and Judge Anderson (p.37) that were disgusted with what was going on and also brave enough to come forward. I wonder if th..."

Any material covering the week's readings can be discussed, so pages 33-70 are fine. Any material covered in the next chapters will have to wait.

Jason wrote: "I probably don't understand how these agencies work, but doesn't the FBI handle only domestic stuff and the CIA gets all the international stuff? ..."

That is essentially correct, Jason. The CIA cannot operate within U.S. borders. The FBI has a little bit broader powers in that it can come in and help investigate crimes abroad dealing with U.S citizens.

Bryan wrote: "Any material covering the week's readings can be discussed, so pages 33-70 are fine. Any material covered in the next chapters will have to wait. "

Thanks for clarifying!

Jason wrote: "Bryan wrote: "Any material covering the week's readings can be discussed, so pages 33-70 are fine. Any material covered in the next chapters will have to wait. "

Thanks for clarifying!"

Glad to help

Here is a link to the National Popular Government League report:

After Post's hearing, you get a sense Hoover emphasized secrecy moving forward:

"The law was too weak a force to protect America. Only secret intelligence could detect and disrupt the threat from the left and protect America from attack." (p. 45)

We truly see the tug of war going on here: courts upholding civil liberties, forcing Hoover to try another way...

I was very intrigued by the nature of Hoover's rise to national prominence as the face of the war on crime. Its odd to think that if Hoover had been a less charismatic and captivating figure, his career and our history would have been very different. I imagine it would have been easier for subsequent presidents to dismiss an unknown federal bureaucrat than the very face of its crime-fighting efforts.

Interesting, Tim, it probably would be harder to remove a national hero than an unknown. It is a little bizarre to consider Hoover a hero because we know what he did.

Bryan wrote: "We truly see the tug of war going on here: courts upholding civil liberties, forcing Hoover to try another way..."

I agree, and it's these tugs that keep things in check. Hoover incessantly challenged the law or ignored it, which is dangerous. And so we had courts, AGs, and politicians who challenged him right back. I can't help but be impressed by the American system and all the myriad contrivances (for better or for worse) that have been spun from the constitution.

Well said, Justin. I was feeling at little disheartened until I came to this section. But, we know, Hoover is a political animal with 9 lives.

Nathan wrote: "It's interesting in these chapters as the great depression begins to mount Hoover's attack on communism is re characterized by the courts and congress as an attack on the poor. As the ranks of the..."

It is interesting. Meanwhile, Hoover investigates veterans who are part of the Bonus Marchers.

I think Tim suggested the word "juggler." Hoover's right hand is saying "yes, we will focus only on law enforcement" while the left is dabbling in political espionage.

An important moment has happened in this section: Hoover's files.

In theory, the DOJ owns these files, but Hoover controls them. I suspect he had them in his office under lock and key.

It seems like there were a lot of files to keep under lock and key; and somebody in his office staff had to know he had them. Hoover seemed quite paranoid.

It's your author, catching up on your comments on Chapters Five through Eight. Thanks to our moderators for keeping the flow going strong. So: any questions? Fire away!

P.S. Fire away in the Q and A posts!

Thanks, Tim, right you are. Don't be shy everyone, Tim has been providing us with great answers.

Bryan wrote: "Interesting, Tim, it probably would be harder to remove a national hero than an unknown. It is a little bizarre to consider Hoover a hero because we know what he did."

I'm not sure that its all that different today. I have a suspicion that there are many things going on in our "war on terror" that we will only discover decades from now, if ever.

I'm wondering if Hoover and Palmer would have been able to scheme away as they did had President Wilson been in better health and more aware of the nation's ongoing war on Communism?

Natacha wrote: "I'm wondering if Hoover and Palmer would have been able to scheme away as they did had President Wilson been in better health and more aware of the nation's ongoing war on Communism?"

Natacha, I had that exact thought as I read that section!

Bryan wrote: "An important moment has happened in this section: Hoover's files.

In theory, the DOJ owns these files, but Hoover controls them. I suspect he had them in his office under lock and key."

Bryan, that struck me as well. In my world (I'm an assistant supporting a top-level executive in a large company), there are files that are for my boss's eyes only. These are stamped confidential, kept in a separate area in locked drawers that only my boss and I have access to. I couldn't help wondering whether Hoover had a devoted "secretary" who similarly helped keep watch.

In my boss's case, the files contain information that is actually pretty benign (salary information, performance reviews of direct reports, etc.) Obviously this was quite different in Hoover's case and I suspect the number of files was very large indeed.

Jason wrote: "I’m happy to see that there were people like Attorney Francis Fisher Kane and Judge Anderson (p.37) that were disgusted with what was going on and also brave enough to come forward.

Jason, Judge Anderson's words resonated with me, too. I thought they still ring true today. "Real Americans, men who believe in law, order, liberty, toleration of others' views on political and religious subjects, are not given to advertising themselves and their patriotism. They have too much respect for Americanism and for patriotism to disgrace these fine words . . . "

Hoover must have been a master at persuasion. Despite the challenges by judges and others over the legality of the organization's activities, the bureau continued to gain power and grow. Mostly because when Hoover flat out lied, people believed him. Witness Hoover's blatant lies to Baldwin and Attorney General Stone (p. 61) when they challenged him; these lies led to Baldwin's actual endorsement of Hoover to lead the bureau.

Bryan wrote: "An important moment has happened in this section: Hoover's files.

In theory, the DOJ owns these files, but Hoover controls them. I suspect he had them in his office under lock and key."

I just went to the Q&A section to ask about the size of the files and found the question asked and answered there - millions of pages by the 1950's. Wow! Boggles the mind, and totally beyond anything in my business world experience.

Natacha wrote: "I'm wondering if Hoover and Palmer would have been able to scheme away as they did had President Wilson been in better health and more aware of the nation's ongoing war on Communism?"

Great question about Wilson. Yeah, I'm not sure if much would change. He was healthy during the first raids during WWI. I get a sense Wilson was getting more and more inflexible in his thinking as he got older. Also, Wilson said "Don't let the country see red." (p. 41) We don't know what that really means.

Kay wrote: "Bryan wrote: "An important moment has happened in this section: Hoover's files.

In theory, the DOJ owns these files, but Hoover controls them. I suspect he had them in his office under lock and k..."

I believe Hoover had a long-time private secretary and she might have had keys. The files must have been in a separate room in the Justice Building, a very large one. In the Q&A, Tim says Hoover also had "Do Not File" files. Yikes!

Jason wrote: "Hoover must have been a master at persuasion..."

He must have been, Jason. He out-foxed AGs, Congressmen, and I think we will see, presidents. Very impressive, master bureaucratic.

Another thing about Hoover: he used not just his agents, but army and navy intelligence, local police, companies, and citizens in his intelligence gathering. This is also impressive.

The Harding Administration. Tim is not a fan of Harding, and this is still the common historian viewpoint: one that is low. The biggest problems were he really didn't make firm stands, he picked some bad men and did not manage them well.

So, we have Harry Daugherty. Do you think Hoover and Daugherty were a great match?

There is one aspect of this weeks reading I have not been able to come to grips with and it goes directly to Hoover as a person. I realize the book has not went deep into his personality, but by Hoovers actions we can start to pick up on some of his character types.

1. Manipulative
2. Opportunist
3. Resist Accountability
4. Authoritarian
5. Charismatic

I bring up these things because in all my education and life it has been said the greatest trait to being a leader is to have integrity. Without it, you will not be successful in leading a company or organization. Clearly, Hoover was successful without it. I will be thinking on this issue of what I've been instructed over my lifetime and what I see/learned for some time.

One positive aspect of reading a book like this is it's easy to dispel arguments when you hear "this administration is the most corrupt in history" or "That agency is a bunch of crooks" I think it's safe to say that is probably never the case, just look at Hardings cronies for an example on how to do corruption.

Rodney wrote: "There is one aspect of this weeks reading I have not been able to come to grips with and it goes directly to Hoover as a person. I realize the book has not went deep into his personality, but by H..."

Interesting Rodney.

Rodney wrote: "There is one aspect of this weeks reading I have not been able to come to grips with and it goes directly to Hoover as a person. I realize the book has not went deep into his personality, but by H..."

I don't think that Hoover would have considered himself without integrity. Rather, he saw the world in larger than life, black and white terms. There was America, and its enemies, and he had a duty to defend his country from those enemies by any means necessary. I think that to Hoover, failing to pursue his mission would have been a true lack of integrity.

What I have gathered so far is that Mr Hoover had never read the US Constitution and if he had he certainly was not prepared to live by it. The abuse he heaped upon the 4th Amendment is staggering. The formation of the ACLU in 1920 and its predecessor the CLB in 1917 were possibly established solely for the purpose of combating the abuses of the FBI and the Attorney Generals Office.
Having an incapacitated President followed by an incompetent one only worsened the problem.

Clayton wrote: "What I have gathered so far is that Mr Hoover had never read the US Constitution and if he had he certainly was not prepared to live by it. The abuse he heaped upon the 4th Amendment is staggering...."

Totally agree!

Rodney wrote: "There is one aspect of this weeks reading I have not been able to come to grips with and it goes directly to Hoover as a person. I realize the book has not went deep into his personality, but by H..."

Some good thoughts, Rodney. I suspect Tim is correct if you ask Hoover if he had integrity, he would immediately say yes. But if we set a higher moral standard, then, in my opinion, no.

Many of these points you listed, Rodney, is part of a recipe for success for Hoover to reach and remain on top.

This quote is interesting about the House Committee to Investigate Communist Activities:

"The congressional investigators were befouled from the start by forged documents, fake evidence, and grandstanding witnesses." (p. 65)

Tim, thank you for your comment. I believe you are right on. Hoover seemed epically dangerous, for the reason you point out is he was absolute in his opinion that everything he's doing is justified.

I have had the experience of working people in an public advocacy capacity. There are some there so assured of their correctness that they do not feel constrained by any sort of law or rule What is difficult to experience is like Hoover, they are very dynamic and successful. Yet, for all their superiority of their righteousness they leave a wake of broken agreements, unfair character assaults, and financial disasters.

Rodney wrote: "Tim, thank you for your comment. I believe you are right on. Hoover seemed epically dangerous, for the reason you point out is he was absolute in his opinion that everything he's doing is justifi..."

Dangerous is a good word

In the early goings on the book I have found Hoovers ability to dodge in and out of possible kick back jabs incredibly interesting. He is able to work around people almost removing him from power, little to no support, negative press, and many other things. Hoover is quite the man and so far I believe Weiner has done a fantastic job of depicting it. Hoover's attempt to rid the country of communism was ahead of his time. He might have gone about it the wrong way but as Weiner describes Hoover is doing it in the only way he knows how. He is defending the country in the way he knows best, by using the power he had been assigned. He was the "instrument of that power" (pg 6).

Indeed, Chris. There were dangerous people out there, but I agree, I'm not sure it was worth the means was worth it

Bryan wrote: "Indeed, Chris. There were dangerous people out there, but I agree, I'm not sure it was worth the means was worth it"
You are right Chris. The end result does not justify the means. I think Hoover was so sure that he was right that he was blinded by his own ego centrism.

Bryan wrote: "Indeed, Chris. There were dangerous people out there, but I agree, I'm not sure it was worth the means was worth it"

And that, I think, is the fundamental issue of this book, the give and take between security and freedom.

Playing virtual historian here for a moment, I'm just wondering what Hoover would have done in 2008 regarding the flap over Obama's birth certificate, if he were still around and in charge. Would he have viewed Obama as an enemy or a friend.