Å·±¦ÓéÀÖ

INTRODUCTION:

Dear Mievillians

Before we start, I would like to share with you my personal impressions of this work, and I would love for you to challenge my views as we go along. (Although agreement wouldn't be entirely discouraged. :D)
I was hoping that with this group read, we can discover and explore together, and have discussions around points we might disagree on.

To me, China Mieville does not always shine in his execution as a writer. However, I do find him a rather disorganised genius that will pelt you with ideas and tropes and objects and compositions.

My general impression of the novel is something like this:
[image error] (I had an image here, but it seems that the link has been removed/disabled sometime in April 2013)

At times, you have to keep your eyes open and stay alert as you rush through his psychedelic world.
At other times you might want to skim through long descriptions of background landscape. I enjoy his world-building, except here and there when it can become rather repetitive.

Of course fellow readers are welcome to challenge my views, in fact, please do - I am just starting us off with some ideas.

To me among the aspects of the novel that stood out, was character development in the main characters, being Lin, Isaac, Dherkan and Yhagarek in particular.

Also, I found that there are quite a few social, political and ethical issues to spot if one pays attention.

Oh, and there is actually a story meandering along underneath all the window dressing. :)

I have broken the novel up into sections of roughly 40-48 pages. I have rounded the pages off so that we will always end a section at the end of a chapter.

The idea would be for you to comment as you go along, and as the slower readers catch up and also comment, one can always go back again and re-visit and chat with them.

The formal discussions will start on November 9, so please wait for everyone else so that we can at least have a simultaneous point of departure at the start of our adventure.

SECTION 1 : Page 1 (including introduction) - end of Chapter 3

There is quite a long introduction. Its main purpose appears to be to set the scene. If you find it tedious, I doubt that skimming it would cause any harm.

In this section, we meet Lin and Isaac. These are two main characters to spot in the crowd.

I would be very interested to hear fellow readers' thoughts on the Kephri.

At some point, I would love for us to start a discussion of Isaac's character and his morals and ethics. Issues around ethics is a thread that seems to be woven though the entire novel.

A bit further on, we also meet some new creatures in addition to Kehpri, such as the Vodyanoi. Mieville takes mythological creatures such as the Egyptian Khepri and the East-European Vodyanoi, and re-shapes them into unique creatures of his own.

I leave it up to you, dear Mievillians, to start the discussion. Please feel free to comment on absolutely anything - from dirty windows to stinky dishwater. :)

Great intro Trav!
I'm a group read virgin, this is all very exciting!!
{jumps up and down on feeties and claps handies}

Agreed -- brava, Trav.

I dunno: tropes and a story? Sounds suspicious. If I'm not careful, I could get my mind expanded.

Catie wrote: "Oh, I agree Traveller. That picture says it all, especially about his Bas Lag books. Have you read The City & The City or Embassytown? I feel like those two are much more focused and streamlined..."

Yep, I read those. More focused. Then I read Perdido Street Station. Literary psychedelia! It was all new to me, so the first descriptions of the Khepri left my jaw a little dropped. And now I'm loving it. See everybody on the 9th. Already got a few paragraphs ready to go!

I'm coming along for the ride for this one.

I read this about four years ago with mixed opinions. But I am very interested in hearing fellow Kindred's reactions.

I am myself, by Å·±¦ÓéÀÖ standards, a pretty slow reader; and will usually try to get a head start on future group reads. So I will be using this group read as practice in staying within the bounds of the page limits regarding spoilers, etc.

Since I personally HATE spoilers, I would hope that my trusted friends here will politely PM me and slap my wrist if I inadvertently step over a line not-yet-covered. I try to be a good boy; but I'm a bit of a scatterbrain. And I may need to be house-trained on good group-read behavior.

I have my own copy which appears to be the accepted group edition, So I will be trying to follow the page number boundaries.

This could be fun:)

Oh! Lovely picture Traveler! How apt. Where did you get it?

It will be lovely to have you all along! Nice to see all the faces popping in here. :)

Mosca wrote: "Since I personally HATE spoilers, I would hope that my trusted friends here will politely PM me and slap my wrist if I inadvertently step over a line not-yet-covered. I try to be a good boy; but I'm a bit of a scatterbrain. And I may need to be house-trained on good group-read behavior..."
Mosca, because of some people having e-readers and different editions, i have instead of pages, divided the read into chapters, since his chapters are quite short. So, each should be a more or less logically section :)

Mosca wrote: "Oh! Lovely picture Traveler! How apt. Where did you get it?."

I thought the book reminded me of a Dada-ist painting, so i Googled that, and that image was among the images that came up. :)

I have the feeling I'm probably in the wrong thread (I'm afraid I'd make a lousy weaver) and I seem to remember November 9 which means I'm a bit early, but...

First impressions (I'll try to keep to first 3 chapters - I'm a hopeless discussionist because I don't remember where exactly these might have occurred so I could be referencing chapters other than 1-3):

1) This reads like Dicken's London - and specifically Our Mutual Friend - the journey up the Thames opens both stories and with two individuals whose identities are hidden (to both the reader and the other characters).

2) The language sways between banal and brilliant - which may be deliberate. The descriptions of place are particularly evocative, as are the species' characteristics, whereas action or dialogue seems mundane - I'm not sure if I see this as a negative criticism or simply comment.

3) Remade - what is the actual species difference be exotics and Remades? By that I mean exotics appear to be a weld of organic/animate and remades appear to be a weld of organic/inanimate as punishment. What strikes me is that it seems as though being an exotic is a 'punishment', and thus there is an unconscious anthropomorphism which the author takes pains to have the exotics denounce - so I'm confused about this juxtapositioning.

4) Not enough science. I don't mind pages of scientific (based) jargon and having to bumble my way through, but as I read, I had too many questions "But what about..." popping up in my mind, so I wouldn't have minded a a few more in-depth and scattered science info dumps...it felt a little too like picking up the jargon word, having the character toss it out, but not ground it in anything substantial. This is not a criticism because there's a lot happening with background anyway, and pace would/could be compromised, I guess. Although...hmmm.

5) Lin and Isaac are going to be drawn onto opposite teams.

are we starting?

I dunno. I have a brain like a sieve so if I don't commit my impressions to digital ink for your viewing pleasure I'll forget what I thought and then you'll never know the brilliant insights you had to forgo.

Or something.

Hey Traveller! Ready, Set, Go?

Scribble, good one on the Dickens connection. I Knew it sounded familiar but could not remember where. You nailed it.

Then there's that organic/animate vs organic/inanimate thing. Sheesh, I gotta go reread this thing again (3rd time). I know, I know it's not that deep...

Science? You're kidding. Do you really think this book is science-based?

There, we started!

I think we should wait for November 9th, when formal discussions are meant to start - otherwise it's not fair for those who aren't ready.

Can't wait to comment Scribble's take on the science based (or not) theme!!!

We might be disturbing Trav's beauty sleep.

ha!!
maybe we should comment quietly so as not to wake her up

Robert wrote: "Science? You're kidding. Do you really think this book is science-based?"

I was moaning about the lack....*frowns*

Andrea wrote: "I think we should wait for November 9th, when formal discussions are meant to start - otherwise it's not fair for those who aren't ready.

Can't wait to comment Scribble's take on the science base..."

Can't wait to read your comments :P

We'll wait for Trav to give the ...ready...set...go!!

I'm so excited. It's my first group read ever. Well, since high school with Far from the Madding Crowd and Othello. Both of which I adored.
I still have my written on copies. And my son used my Othello for his final year of English at school, 'twas a wonderful thing to share something across a 26 year gap.

Dunno if he would have loved the Hardy, it's a real girlie book.

Andrea wrote: "We'll wait for Trav to give the ...ready...set...go!!

I'm so excited. It's my first group read ever. ..."

I just got back from a Sunday night book club meet. It's one book a month and we chat about it at the end for about an 60-90min. This CM group read is nothing like that and I'm really looking forward to it also. oh yeah, Nov 9, now I remember... sorry Trav'

Robert wrote: "Andrea wrote: "We'll wait for Trav to give the ...ready...set...go!!

I'm so excited. It's my first group read ever. ..."

I just got back from a Sunday night book club meet. It's one book a month ..."

I've never belonged to a r/l book club - mainly because the ones I've been invited to are of suburban women who read mushy family sagas or emotional stories about women who live in China, India, Ireland etc....I'd rather slit my wrists. I'n a bit of an intellectual snob when it comes to books.
Your book club isn't like that right?

I'm gathering that a criminal is 'remade' as part of the punishment, and/or a person can be remade to better suit their profession. Lots of push pull between the individual and society, whether it be a hive or a university.

Hey guys, i've been out writing exams, so only back to catch up now.

I haven't even had time to read this thread yet.

I am wondering if i should send out a bulletin that the discussion has already started? I was actually thinking of putting it to the vote, since you all seem so eager, but it seems as if I'm too late anyway, heh heh.

Will send out a bulletin soon.

All right, I see it's mainly Scribble who's been a busy bee. Scribs, we'd better wait for the rest, -like Andrea said, it's only fair! I know how highly intelligent you are, so I am quite confident that you're not going to forget things in the space of 2 or three days... ;)

We make a better acquaintance with the remade in the next section, so it might be better to discuss them where everybody has seen a few of them, and has, moreover, met an individual called Mr Motley, who doesn't appear in this section, and whom we can discuss to our heart's content in the next section. :)

In this first section, I am very eager to hear what you guys think of Kephri, and of Isaac and Lin's liaison among other things.

Hmm, I wonder if I have set this group to "adult?" I think so, but I had better check.

Isaac and Lin seem like two consenting adults, mutually using one another, and perhaps slightly addicted to the scandal and sex. I have a sense that Isaac isn't too hot, so he may be grateful for the companionship. Lin has the ability to break his heart, and is likely to do so.

The Khepri seem primitive. Their society is based on insects, with a touch of, I think, cultural aspects that remind me of third world, traditional societies strangled by a world passing them by.

I love the buggy descriptions of Lin, mixed with human female, making a wonderful alien combination.

I assume that we are still going to wait until the start date?

(view spoiler)[I take a more romantic approach to Lin and Isaac than Chance. I think there is a genuine attraction and mutual sense of wonder between them.

So far, it's been one of the most impressive features of the novel for me.

Isaac is described as a fat bastard (over six feet high) , while Lin seems to be more petite (five feet high).

I don't think his appearance is the issue for Mieville or Lin.

Different species can approach each other and their [illicit] relationships without preconceptions of the ideal.

There is something more real in this freedom from the chains of superficial appearance. (hide spoiler)]

@ Message 1:

I'm interested in readers' perception of the colour of the novel.

Trav's perception seems to be very colourful and playful, almost like a bag of multi-coloured jelly beans.

For some reason, I am seeing it as (view spoiler)[brown (hide spoiler)].

I had a colour perception of The City and the City as well.

Partly because of the cover, I imagined The City as a (view spoiler)[blue/grey world (hide spoiler)].

Ian: "I assume that we are still going to wait until the start date?"

I think that the horses are already out of the gate. We could run and catch them, and give them a lecture about waiting their turn.

But we might get trampled by the hooves.

The Remades:

(view spoiler)[ (hide spoiler)]

@ Message 9:

(view spoiler)[Scribble makes some really stimulating points.

The language sways between banal and brilliant - which may be deliberate.

There is a combination of B-movie action and philosophy or the philosophy of science.

Not enough science.

I wonder whether philosophy might be more important than science.

Science seems to have been a tool of nonconformity in the case of Isaac.

Lin and Isaac are going to be drawn onto opposite teams.

Um...please no.

(hide spoiler)]

Ian wrote: "I take a more romantic approach to Lin and Isaac than Chance. I think there is a genuine attraction and mutual sense of wonder betwee..."

I agree to a thin veneer of romance, so far, and I'm curious as to whether it'll thicken or fold. Not being a romantic sort myself, I need to see more evidence. Their relationship is largely kept secret, still, so Issac, only partly rebel, is slow to give all of his heart. The fact that Lin has a woman's body appeals to him, but Lin's table manners grosses him out. So, not a head over heels love affair where the beloved can do no wrong, but comfortable in one respect and exciting in another.

Ian wrote: "The Remades:

[spoilers removed]"

China's show, not tell hinted at all this. Ah! Signs of a skilled writer!

Andrea wrote: "I'd rather slit my wrists. I'n a bit of an intellectual snob when it comes to books.
Your book club isn't like that right? "

ROtFLOL...Well Andrea, I have to be careful some of my "other" book club members might be lurking, let's just say it's different. I do find myself reading some great material I would not have read otherwise like Hunger Games and Fifty Shades of Grey, no no just kidding. :D

Robert wrote: "Andrea wrote: "I'd rather slit my wrists. I'n a bit of an intellectual snob when it comes to books.
Your book club isn't like that right? "

ROtFLOL...Well Andrea, I have to be careful some of my "..."

Hunger Games wasn't that bad actually, and FSOG was great to be able to lambast. It brought out my inner bitch.
I'm talking about women who, when invited to comment on the amazing kickassedness of "Natural Born Killers', look at me blankly then change the subject quickly.

Okies, seeing as we have started.
Firstly, I am annotating as we go along. I need to explain that I have to do this in ballpoint pen, due the the thinness of the USA version's paper (are books meant to be disposable? The horror!! The horror!!). I never EVER use ballpoint, I use fountain pen ink, usually in the Herbin colour Rose Cyclamen. Sometimes Vert Reseda.
This is a Great Sacrifice.

This transitions nicely into Ian's question, what colour do I see?


Well Ian, I see dirty, grubby. I see swirly browny grey-y black-y. Nothing solid colour, all mixed randomly. Underneath the grime there are indeed colours, but they are all muddied. I see foreshadowing of moral ambiguity, of events becoming messy and dirtied, of change becoming superimposed on the original.

Trav's wonderful collage is too bright, too much primal colours with sharp edges for me to feel that it accuractely represents PSS. This for me is a "dirty" book, this again is not a "nice" book like I said about The Scar. The word debased on page 1 leaps out at me. This sounds like a warning to my ear.

On the colour theme, Lin is described as a red, she seems clean with clear edges. She is very sure of who she is and what she wants, this I feel is reflected by her current appearance.

Another theme that struck me was the image of Perdido Street Station . On page 4, the narrator will follow the trainlines , the on page 20 we see the station, which yawned hugely as if to engulf all. The image of the lines entering and leaving this huge ediface again hint to me of change, of transition.

Finally Lin to me is very sure of herself, almost smug when she contemplates her pious ex-community. She is self-assured and confident in her art.
Isaac is also smug, and a bit arrogant - contemptous of property (his plifering), contemptuous of those he thinks intellectually inferior (page 26, he howled at Benchamburg), selfish (he ignores Lin's emotional need to have him as her lover emtionally), and emotionally distant (he ignores the Garuda's obvious distress and focuses on the intellectual problem of restorimg flight).
I see their relationship in these three chapters mainly based on sexual attraction rather then emotional intimacy.

An a PS to Scribble re her science comment. Science, to me is black and white, has sharp edges, is consistent and reproducible. Here CM describes an underpinning set of "rules" that are not clear-cut, not black and white, are not predictable,and above all, subject to change with no notice. There are many themes here of transition, of change, of ambuguity, of things becoming sullied and soiled and dirtied. CM doesn't explain, he describes and lets us analyse as we will. It's meant to be overwhelming and partly incomprehensible. I've restarted many a CM book when I have been totally lost, some more than once lol.

Well, we have not officially started- you guys have started, which is a done deed, and may as well continue in this thread, but please, I ask that we stick to this thread for the next day or two, and then we can let loose on the following sections as well on Thursday evening midnight Greenwitch Standard time. (We might allow a bit of leniency and make it Thursday evening NZ time, shall we? ) ;)

Only a few more hours to go for that, thanks, people.

Right, that said, let me read this thread now and comment on the actual comments. :)

Chance wrote: "Isaac and Lin seem like two consenting adults, mutually using one another, and perhaps slightly addicted to the scandal and sex. I have a sense that Isaac isn't too hot, so he may be grateful for ..."

I'm commenting on the quoted post and Ian's post below it.
Since this discussion will include sex and politics, i made it an adults-only group, so i think it should be fine to discuss these, as anybody who actually reads the book and is not (view spoiler)[grossed out by a human- insect sexual liaison (hide spoiler)] should be good to go with the rest of the novel.

Chance, i had a similar idea about the Kephri, especially a bit later on where Lin goes to visit her mother- but let's leave that specific discussion for that section.

I agree with Ian that there appears to be genuine affection between Isaac and Lin, but I'm rather surprised that nobody commented on the fact that Isaac seems to find it necessary to hide his relationship with Lin from the rest of the world.

What does that tell us about this specific society that Mieville is sketching?

Ian wrote: "The Remades:

[spoilers removed]"

Section two is ripe for a remade discussion, since we meet Mr Motley and his butler in that section. :)

Traveller wrote: "I agree with Ian that there appears to be genuine affection between Isaac and Lin, but I'm rather surprised that nobody commented on the fact that Isaac seems to find it necessary to hide his relationship with Lin from the rest of the world..."

I did in my post, I think he's selfish and self-serving.

Regarding the colour of the actual world; I most certainly agree with Ian [ETA- only saw Andrea's hidden post now and, i must say i love the analogy of dirt and grime visually, to moral ambiguity metaphorically speaking]; that it seems gloomy with browns and greys and with a lot of filth around, in my mind's eye.

The colourful image i had posted was more for a metaphor of how the book is absolutely jam-packed with objects and ideas and tropes and themes- many of them not very realistic-- you will see when you become more closely acquainted with the cactus-people and with The Weaver-- how "unreal" a lot of this is; -but that is for later sections.

I'm just going to jump in here (again) - I've read all preceding comments and have tried to factor my comment bearing in mind the preceding comments.... I'm dealing specifically with my Chapter 1 responses here.

(view spoiler)[

1) Colour - sepia/monochromatic in the Prologue, so I don't have a kaleidoscopic sense as Trav/Ian mention but rather as Andrea points out - and I think that's pretty consistently Dickensian. However the opening of Chapter 1 moves straight into a Cairene bazaar. More colour, dust from the aged buildings, grey light. From this, the colour changes to a) Lin's red skin and head and b) mother-of-pearl (opaque, milk opal quality) shadows of light passing through her wings.

2) Panorama view telescoping to the close-up - which if you didn't get the message, you're told with the photo-capture of two protags sitting silhouetted.

3) Bug sex: this got right up my nose. There's a trope about mermaids where a guy is presented with female lower and fish-head upper, or female upper and fish-tail. Wanna bet which one he realistically picks? So quite frankly, I don't find this particularly exotic - in fact it falls nicely in line with much of the sixties sci-fi/fantasy rendering of females as sex objects. Isaac might have big gut (and yup, I object to laying hugely "hugely"?!?!?!) but he's taut and strong so not particularly unattractive - part of the hero mythos. If he'd been flabby that would have been more interesting.

5) The comment on anthropomorphism signals it's going to be a topic.

6) Romance - can't really feel sympathetic with Lin for wanting Isaac to publicly acknowledge her if it's going to mangle his career and since Isaac is the one to comment upon and relate the situation, not Lin, currently have no other input. They've been together two years so it mush have some kind of emotional grounding other than the novelty of cross-love.

7) Bughead descriptions = the typewriter in Burrough's The Naked Lunch.

8) Science eg: bio-thaumaturge. Nicely dropped in there - and? What is it? I don't want a line by line description but I'd like a little more background on it.

9) Tension between the two protags as described by Isaac (public acknowledgement of lover status vs hidden) = why I think they will be set up to follow conflicting paths.

(hide spoiler)]

Andrea wrote: "Another theme that struck me was the image of Perdido Street Station . On page 4, the narrator will follow the trainlines , the on page 20 we see the station, which yawned hugely as if to engulf all. The image of the lines entering and leaving this huge ediface again hint to me of change, of transition.
.."

Excellent observation, Andrea, especially when the novel is seen as an entirety.

Andrea wrote: "
I did in my post, I think he's selfish and self-serving..."

Thanks for pointing your post out. I had missed it under the spoiler tags.

When i initially read the book, it struck me what a racist society this was, with the Kephri being marginalized, and with it being scandalous to have a more intimate liaison across the species line. Which is of course, an analogy to interracial relationships in our own world.

And i agree that Isaac seems egocentric and selfish. And he has a touch of hubris, perhaps? The latter will come out more in later chapters.

Scribble, it is true that Isaac does have muscular arms. But later on in the novel, you will realize that he has indeed a fat stomach too.. :P

Traveller wrote: "I agree with Ian that there appears to be genuine affection between Isaac and Lin, but I'm rather surprised that nobody commented on the fact that Isaac seems to find it necessary to hide his relationship with Lin from the rest of the world."

Trav, I apologise for breaking the press embargo, but to the extent that I did, I was hoping you wouldn't mind me hiding my offence behind a spoiler alert.

I will continue this approach until the embargo is over, at which point all will be revealed.

(view spoiler)[There is clearly hiding from the world happening in the novel.

Historically, couples have hidden relationships for all sorts of reasons: age, family, race, nationality, politics, shyness.

These sensitivities are unknown to Lin, but presumably familiar to Isaac.

Isaac has been cast out of mainstream society. He and his relationships are therefore outside mainstream society.

That doesn't mean that love and lust can't exist. To the extent that they do, they require new rules, the rules of the alternative society to which they belong. Or the rules that the couple invent and elect to govern themselves by.

The important thing is that these rules are consensual, mutual and reciprocated.

Just as many of the ideas in the novel are counter-cultural, the alternative ideas are constructed on a framework of love, concern and protectiveness.

Whether this idealism is questioned is yet to come.

(hide spoiler)]

Re the science; there is a nice opportunity for discussion on the quasi-pseudo unscience that we find in the novel, later on just after the visit to the fair (which we'll be doing in section 3) when Isaac ruminates on some aspects of his worlds' "science"

I was initially excited when i thought Isaac was talking 'real' science as it would conform to our world, but i think part of the reason why Mieville uses archaic and strange spellings for words like Chymical, elytricity and the mention of Thamaturgy, is that he is prompting us that this is a world with a different set of rules- rather analogous to our own, but not quite the same.

Andrea wrote: "I did in my post, I think he's selfish and self-serving."

He is a male, isn't he?

If I can't play him in the Wachowski Siblings film, then I hope Jeff Bridges can.

Scribble wrote: "Colour - sepia/monochromatic in the Prologue, so I don't have a kaleidoscopic sense as Trav/Ian mention but rather as Andrea points out - and I think that's pretty consistently Dickensian. However the opening of Chapter 1 moves straight into a Cairene bazaar. More colour, dust from the aged buildings, grey light. From this, the colour changes to a) Lin's red skin and head and b) mother-of-pearl (opaque, milk opal quality) shadows of light passing through her wings.

2) Panorama view telescoping to the close-up - which if you didn't get the message, you're told with the photo-capture of two protags sitting silhouetted.."

I love your sense of atmosphere, Scribble! I love the vignettes you sketch there- very visually descriptive.

Traveller wrote: "Scribble, it is true that Isaac does have muscular arms. But later on in the novel, you will realize that he has indeed a fat stomach too.. :P"

Which presumably establishes for our younger audience that you can have muscular arms and a fat stomach.

Ian wrote: (view spoiler)["Isaac has been cast out of mainstream society. He and his relationships are therefore outside mainstream society.." (hide spoiler)]

(view spoiler)[My take on that is that Isaac has simply isolated himself as a renegade scientist, he wants to study science his way, not the way that his college of uni dictates to him.

He is, however, still an accepted member of society but he is afraid of losing that status if his liaison with Lin becomes known outside of his personal circle. Therefore i find him hypocritical and pandering to racists/racism.
(hide spoiler)]

Hello!

Just wanted to pop in and say that while I'm not participating in the group read this time (I'm on the final book of a two-year reading list and just have to finish it) - PSS is a book I've read several times and love very much, so will be keeping an eye on your discussions and hoping you all enjoy it.

Traveller wrote: "Ian wrote:My take on that is that Isaac has simply isolated himself as a renegade scientist, he wants to study science his way, not the way that his college of uni dictates to..."

It appears to be women's scepticism about males that forces us males into the arms of kephri females.