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Hello Everyone,

For the week of October 7, 2013 - October 13, 2013, we are reading Chapter TWENTY-FOUR and TWENTY-FIVE, (p. 506 - 552) of Roosevelt's Centurions: FDR & the Commanders He Led to Victory in World War II.

This week's reading assignment is:

Week Nineteen - October 7th - October 13th -> Chapter TWENTY-FOUR and TWENTY-FIVE, p. 506 - 552 - TWENTY-FOUR - Death of the Commander in Chief and TWENTY-FIVE - Anatomy of Victory

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

This book is being kicked off on May 28th (the day the book is released officially). We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Borders and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, or on your Kindle. Make sure to pre-order now if you haven't already. This weekly thread will be opened up on October 7th. We offer a special thank you to Random House for their generosity.

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.

Alisa will be leading this discussion.

Welcome,

~ Alisa


TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL

by Joseph E. Persico

REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS - ON EACH WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREAD - WE ONLY DISCUSS THE PAGES ASSIGNED OR THE PAGES WHICH WERE COVERED IN PREVIOUS WEEKS. IF YOU GO AHEAD OR WANT TO ENGAGE IN MORE EXPANSIVE DISCUSSION - POST THOSE COMMENTS IN ONE OF THE SPOILER THREADS. THESE CHAPTERS HAVE A LOT OF INFORMATION SO WHEN IN DOUBT CHECK WITH THE CHAPTER OVERVIEW AND SUMMARY TO RECALL WHETHER YOUR COMMENTS ARE ASSIGNMENT SPECIFIC. EXAMPLES OF SPOILER THREADS ARE THE GLOSSARY, THE BIBLIOGRAPHY, THE INTRODUCTION AND THE BOOK AS A WHOLE THREADS.

Notes:

It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.

Citations:

If an author or book is mentioned other than the book and author being discussed, citations must be included according to our guidelines. Also, when citing other sources, please provide credit where credit is due and/or the link. There is no need to re-cite the author and the book we are discussing however.

If you need help - here is a thread called the Mechanics of the Board which will show you how:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/2...

Glossary

Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed.

(Part One) http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/8...
(Part Two) http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

Bibliography

There is a Bibliography where books cited in the text are posted with proper citations and reviews. We also post the books that the author used in her research or in her notes. Please also feel free to add to the Bibliography thread any related books, etc with proper citations. No self promotion, please.

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

Q&A with Joseph

Please as you are reading post questions to the author's Q&A thread because Joseph Persico will be looking in periodically and will be posting answers to your questions and will be available for a chat. We are very fortunate that he is making time to spend with us.

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/8...

by Joseph E. Persico

Chapter Overviews and Summaries

Chapter 24: Death of a Commander in Chief (pg 506-527)

FDR, although handicapped by polio, has been a virile man all of his life but it appears that his health is failing. He decides to go to Warm Springs and is quite ill when he arrives. But with his usual resiliency, he begin work and seems to recover. He has several visitors with him including his life-long love, Lucy Mercer Rutherford who is accompanied by a Russian emigre painter who will do the President's portrait. But FDR's blood pressure is skyrocketing and his friend Hassett wrote in his diary, "The Boss is leaving us." While sitting for his portrait the president has a massive cerebral hemorrhage and is dead three hours later.

Eisenhower, Bradley, and Patton were together close to the front when they heard of the President's death on the radio. Patton has unkind things to say about Harry Truman who is now the President and most of the inner circle do not think Truman is qualified to be President. The next day, Secretary of War Stimson reveals the secret weapon, the atomic bomb, for the first time to Truman. The Nazis are jubilant and see FDR's death as a sign while Japan was much more reserved in its reaction.

The President's body is brought back to Washington and a stunned silence of the 300,000 persons lining the streets to watch the caisson pass is eerie. Churchill does not choose to come to the funeral and his reasons are still being debated, most of which do not do credit to the character of Churchill.

Thirteen days after the President's death the US and Red Armies shook hands on the Elbe Rivers. All was now lost for the Germans and Hitler marries his mistress, Eva Braun and they commit suicide together in the bunker. The day before,Mussolini had been shot and hung upside down alongside with his mistress in Milan. On May 7, 1945 the unconditional surrender is signed and the war in Europe is ended. Now the problem of invading Japan is discussed and figures show that as many as a million deaths could occur if the home islands were attacked. The Potsdam Declaration between Truman and Stalin guarantees that Russia will join the battle against Japan. But that is not necessary as the US drops the atomic bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki and Japan surrenders on August 14th. The controversy of the use of the atomic bomb still rages. WWII is over.

Chapter 25: Anatomy of Victory (pg 528-552)

As we reach the conclusion of the book, the author measures Roosevelt's success as a wartime commander into three principal roles:

a) Recruiting Officer: He picked his military leaders with great skill; General George Marshall, General Dwight Eisenhower, Admiral Ernest King, General "Hap" Arnold, General George Patton, and General Douglas MacArthur. He handled each personality and it paid great dividends both militarily and politically

b) Strategist In Chief: Although a non-military man, FDR took the role of Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy. He realized, even before the US entered the war that Germany was the leading threat. He did not change his priorities even after Pearl Harbor and was in favor of a "D Day" type invasion as early as 1942. Churchill wanted to win the war to maximize the Empire and FDR bowed to his military experience by engaging the Germans in Africa, Italy, and Sicily. The carpet bombing of German cities has also been called into question and is considered by one historian as a "grotesque failure". The author posits that Roosevelt's best decisions advanced victory and his worst delayed it.

c) Home Front Leader: Walter Lippmann wrote" The final test of a leader is that he leaves behind him in other men the conviction and the will to carry on". He exuded confidence and spoke directly to the people through his Fireside Chats. The author's opinion is that Franklin Delano Roosevelt ranks with the immortals, with Washington and Lincoln, both as president and commander in chief.

I think it was amazing, that even after FDR's mother and Eleanor warned him off of Lucy Mercer, he continued for 30 years to continue the relationship. Persico says that Eleanor was not aware of it but here is one point where I might disagree. It wasn't much of a marriage and I feel that Eleanor threw herself into many of her good causes and projects because of the failure of the marriage and FDR's continuing relationship with Lucy. Any thoughts about that theory?

Jill wrote: "I feel that Eleanor threw herself into many of her good causes and projects because of the failure of the marriage and FDR's continuing relationship with Lucy..."

I agree and one wonders what their children knew and thought.

I think it was actually a very good marriage in some ways, but not in all of the ways that we tend to think a marriage should be.

I think we should first remember that Franklin (handsome, successful, sure of himself, wealthy) married Eleanor who (at the time) was really none of those things.

We should also remember that, in that much earlier time (when it was much less usual) Franklin allowed Eleanor to do much as she wanted. Perhaps she even served his purposes by being a sort of "advance guard" of progressive reform, doing things he couldn't do (or, at least, felt he couldn't do).

In "All in the Family" Archie at one point says "Eleanor discovered the Negros in this country. Until she came along, no one knew they were there". A liberal like me rarely agrees with Archie, but he has a point here.

There are several excellent books on their relationship - No Ordinary Time comes to mind first - and they all focus mostly on the remarkable political relationship between the two. FDR had to work within the boundaries of the bureaucratic political world. Eleanor could skirt it and skirt it she did. For example, she pushed to mainstream African Americans and women while he could not. I think the marriage suited them both, after a while, but I don't want to imagine the emotional complexities involved. They both had exceptional personal strength not often seen in politics today.

by Doris Kearns Goodwin

For a period in the 1980’s I resided in New York City on East 65th, on the same block just a few doors down on the same side of the street from the Roosevelt House located at 47-49 East 65th Street. I’d often walk by and wonder of days past with Sara, Franklin and Eleanor inside.

The two seemed to have reached an understanding in the wake of Lucy's involvement. Eleanor got free reign to do what she wants and FDR not stand in her way.

These books looks interesting but I have not read them:

by Hazel Rowley (no photo)

Our author wrote:

by Joseph E. Persico

I agree, Mark, I wonder what their children thought. Some I think agreed that FDR was happy with Lucy, so there it is.

I thought Presico’s revelation on page 541 was quite interesting: “Another common thread running through Roosevelt’s choices was his single standard merit. Almost to a man, none of the leading generals and admirals had voted for Roosevelt before the war or shared his political philosophy. There was not a Democrat in the lot. Yet, not in a single instance did political affiliation, social connections, or other irrelevancy influence FDR.�

I was struck by that as well. Today, it is all politics. His leadership abilities and his talent for charming, even his enemies, was amazing.

In chapter 24, page 516, it says regarding FDR's death: "Conspicuously absent from the funeral ceremonies was Winston Churchill." This was a foolish, petty, and immature neglect on the part of WC. Sometimes I'm surprised at how childish leaders can seem to be when so much and so many are riding on their decisions and behavior...

When the guns fell silent, we are told that the cost to the Soviet Union was (page 521), "Eight million Soviet dead..." What a horrific waste. Aside from the fact that we may think that for Hitler and Stalin, their nations got what was coming to them, it still boggles my mind that a handful of deluded men can cause such incalculable havoc, suffering, and waste in the world.

How much of the ebb and flow of war is due to timing and chance? In chapter 25, page 528, it says: "The president found Marshall's backbone a novel and refreshing experience." Interesting to call it novel and refreshing...makes one wonder about some of the other generals... At any rate, FDR chose his leaders wisely and was very fortunate to have unusually capable generals available at that moment in history. He was also gifted at making use of people's strong points while being able to not get too distracted or rattled by their weaknesses or idiosyncrasies.

On page 537, we are told, "At any one of several junctures Roosevelt could have cut MacArthur off." FDR gave opportunities to leaders in order to test them. Did he give too many chances to DM? Was he limited in his options and felt that DM was the best that he had for the situation...or did he see talent beyond DM's reckless behavior? Perhaps we will never know for sure...

On page 539, it says, "The stability that Roosevelt maintained stands in sharp contrast to Churchill." I'm not sure if the British would entirely agree with that statement, but certainly FDR showed loyalty and confidence and didn't require a scapegoat when things went badly. On the other hand, it's amazing that, when faced with a victorious and seemingly invincible army covering all of Europe, Britain (with WC leading the way) didn't blink or look for a calculated settlement, but went full steam ahead as if they knew they would be victorious.

Lewis wrote: "In chapter 24, page 516, it says regarding FDR's death: "Conspicuously absent from the funeral ceremonies was Winston Churchill." This was a foolish, petty, and immature neglect on the part of WC. ..."

It seems Churchill regretted not coming to the funeral.

Winston Churchill

Lewis wrote: "On page 537, we are told, "At any one of several junctures Roosevelt could have cut MacArthur off." FDR gave opportunities to leaders in order to test them. Did he give too many chances to DM? Was ..."

Interesting, Lewis, maybe FDR thought he had the best out there. He knew the area and culture better than anyone, I suppose. I personally don't hold MacArthur in godlike esteem.

Page 541: "Almost to a man, none of the leading generals and admirals had voted for Roosevelt." Would be an interesting study to see how this compared with the military choices of our other presidents. It is a striking fact that shows FDR's broadmindedness, lack of holding grudges, and thinking outside the box...

Grant, Ike, and Jackson probably were pretty popular to get a soldiers/officers vote. I think Reagan was too.

Page 543 tells us that: "Roosevelt bowed to Churchill's superior military credentials." To what extent was this true? Although FDR had a great curiosity and interest in the nuts and bolts happenings of the war, he also was able to see the big picture and understand what was really important to the long term goal and which details perhaps were not essential or worth making a big fuss over. He was insistent on seeking to dismantle the British empire to some extent, and he also was keenly aware of the need to keep the USSR in the war. Bur perhaps he also realized that he could let WC have his own way in areas that FDR perceived as negotiable or not essential to the long term outcome.

Lewis wrote: "Page 543 tells us that: "Roosevelt bowed to Churchill's superior military credentials." To what extent was this true? Although FDR had a great curiosity and interest in the nuts and bolts happening..."

I think the author is referring to early in the war and I agree with him.

Could U.S. army do well against the Germans if they attacked them in France? Could we have pulled off a amphibious assault like D-Day earlier without the experience of North Africa, Sicily, and Italy? I think Churchill would say no and FDR agreed.

I have to say I appreciate Churchill's motives of keeping the empire intact much more because of this book. Also, I appreciate how North Africa/Italy was strategically a mistake, but the U.S. learned important tactical lessons. Hard calls indeed.

Carpet bombing of German cities, which was a favorite tactic of "Bomber" Harris and supported by Hap Arnold did not achieve what the Allies thought it would. In fact, German production rose to an all time high in 1944 which I find amazing. And it did not break the morale of the German people.....it was "victory or death" which was Hitler's mantra and the people continued to fight while the country was being leveled. What a great psychological study that would be.....did Hitler and his propaganda machine have the country that much in thrall or were they just benumbed to the point that fighting was the only option?

I guess there are arguments made for both, Jill. I think there is something to say about Hitler's power over the German nation. It is hard to fathom, but other countries experience it in various shades in the old Soviet Union, China, Caribbean, and Africa.

There are different schools of thoughts on this and I think this is one of the more famous ones, arguing that many people were following Hitler to the end:

by Daniel Jonah Goldhagen

Page 545: "The bombing campaign had been 'a gross failure.'" Perhaps it depends how you measure it. For the Allied populations who had suffered so greatly, it may have been a needed morale boost that kept them going and struggling during those terrible days...knowing that the Germans were getting some of what they had been dishing out for so long...

Page 546: "Roosevelt's major strategic decision in the Pacific...cost a steep price." The cost in young lives lost and in societies and families disrupted is hard to measure, perhaps even too great to measure. But it could be argued that the path taken was wise, practical, and necessary.

Page 546: "The critics of unconditional surrender..." How does one negotiate with someone as diabolical as Hitler? Due to his demonic decisions and activities, as well as for the need to motivate the people involved in the war effort, it was necessary to take a hard, rigid stance.

On page 548 we are told that, "Critics paint a picture of a feeble, dying president incapable of standing up to Stalin." Perhaps that is so, and it is easy to criticize in hindsight...but FDR needed Russia's support to shut the Germans down.

Some great and thought provoking statements and ideas in the last chapter! "Did his decisions advance or hinder successful prosecution of the war?" (Page 549) Europe was very much on its knees during much of the war...it was understandable and sensible that these Allies needed to be helped first.

Lewis wrote: "Page 545: "The bombing campaign had been 'a gross failure.'" Perhaps it depends how you measure it. For the Allied populations who had suffered so greatly, it may have been a needed morale boost th..."

The Russians were particularly brutal as far as bringing home to the Reich what it had dealt to others, especially the atrocities in Russian. They returned those actions in spades and visited some pretty unspeakable horrors on the German civilians. The other Allies were not a party to that type of revenge....or at least not that we know of.

FDR was a genius at "public relations".....in other words, if your country cannot identify with you as the leader or believe in you, public morale tumbles. He reached out to Americans through his fireside chats, his availability to the press/radio and always was the picture of confidence. He initiated programs to recognize those who served and made some small forward movement in racial integration. As a home front leader, I give him an A+.
Churchill also had that talent as a country's leader and unfortunately, so did Hitler although his talents were for whipping people into a frenzy and allowing no questioning of his methods or policies. His was a different type of leadership utilizing fear and intimidation but it worked. Fascinating.

Jill, I really hadn't thought of it that way, but you are right, all 4 (including Stalin at that time) were great leaders and motivators of their people. This was a monumental, almost mythic struggle between titans. I had been thinking of property rather than people (Britain vs. Germany, for example) but your comment really changes my perspective.

I had read a couple of books about the Germans fighting on when all was lost because Hitler expected it. He was a leader that demanded and got adoration from the citizens (at least most of them). But does it make him a great leader?......a man that would let the economy, humanity, and resources of his country be wasted when it was obvious that the war was lost. If his talents would have been for positive rebuilding of Germany after WWI, he may have become one of the great statesmen of the world but that was not the case. Well, we know what happened.

Page 550: "FDR's grade as a strategist is mixed." It seems that his was a most complex task...managing the American psyche, attempting to meet the needs of the Allies, seeking to create a workable post-war world. With so many needs, perspectives, and conflicting sides, I wonder how or if it would have been possible to create the perfect strategy...

Page 550: "The GI Bill..." It was unprecedented and unique in the world and sweeping in its benefit to so many.

Page 551: "FDR was the chess master..." He had a great ability to see beyond the urgent, the visible, the current, the obvious...

Page 551: "He was bolder..." FDR was a risk taker par excellence...lend lease, the atomic card, using the military to push forward to victory with his eye on the future...

Page 552: "The president's life can only be regarded as heroic." FDR was indomitable in the same way as was Lincoln.

Lewis wrote: "Page 550: "FDR's grade as a strategist is mixed." It seems that his was a most complex task...managing the American psyche, attempting to meet the needs of the Allies, seeking to create a workable ..."

Impossible, Lewis, I agree, and we should not expect perfection, but maybe we do, which lends itself to other problems.

Lewis wrote: "Page 550: "The GI Bill..." It was unprecedented and unique in the world and sweeping in its benefit to so many."

A huge and important bill, Lewis, thanks.

Lewis wrote: "Page 551: "FDR was the chess master..." He had a great ability to see beyond the urgent, the visible, the current, the obvious..."

Indeed, as Jill said, he was a master and could see moves ahead, especially in regard to politics and how to use what is on hand to fullest advantage. Stalin, maybe naive, but as Persico says, he didn't have a lot of options. You didn't want another war against the Soviets.

Thanks to all who participated in this group read. Due to extenuating circumstances, Alisa could not be with us for the wrap-up, so I thank you on her behalf. There were many good discussions and very thoughtful questions which kept the discussion lively and interesting.

Please don't forget to put your comments on the "Book As A Whole and Final Thoughts" thread at the link below.

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