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10. THE METAPHYSICAL CLUB ~ August 26th - September 1st ~~ Part Four - Chapter Ten ~ (235- 254) ~ Burlington ~No-Spoilers, please
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Message One - on each non spoiler thread - will help you find all of the information that you need for each week's reading.
For Week Ten - for example, we are reading and discussing the following:
Week Ten - August 26th - September 1st
Part Four - Chapter Ten
Burlington (235 - 254)
Please only discuss Chapter Ten through page 254 on this thread. However from now on you can also discuss any of the pages that came before this week's reading - including anything in the Preface or Introduction or anything in Chapter One through Chapter Nine. However the main focus of this week's discussion is Chapter Ten.
This is a non spoiler thread.
But we will have in this folder a whole bunch of spoiler threads dedicated to all of the pragmatists or other philosophers or philosophic movements which I will set up as we read along and on any of the additional spoiler threads - expansive discussions about each of the pragmatists/philosophers/philosophic movements can also take place on any of these respective threads. Spoiler threads are also clearly marked.
If you have any links, or ancillary information about anything dealing with the book itself feel free to add this to our Glossary thread.
If you have lists of books or any related books about the people discussed, or about the events or places discussed or any other ancillary information - please feel free to add all of this to the thread called - Bibliography.
If you would like to plan ahead and wonder what the syllabus is for the reading, please refer to the Table of Contents.
If you would like to write your review of the book and present your final thoughts because maybe you like to read ahead - the spoiler thread where you can do all of that is called Book as a Whole and Final Thoughts. You can also have expansive discussions there.
For all of the above - the links are always provided in message one.
Always go to message one of any thread to find out all of the important information you need.
Bentley will be moderating this book and Kathy will be the backup.
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Here are the rules and guidelines of the HBC:
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/5...
Please on the non spoiler threads: a) Stick to material in the present week's reading.
Also, in terms of all of the threads for discussion here and on the HBC - please be civil.
We want our discussion to be interesting and fun.
Make sure to cite a book using the proper format.
You don't need to cite the Menand book, but if you bring another book into the conversation; please cite it accordingly as required.
Now we can begin week ten......
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Chapter Ten: Burlington
Part 2, Chapter 10 - Burlington, Section One
As readers we are thrown ten years forward into the late 19th Century with the introduction of John Dewey. He has a completely different background than Holmes, Peirce and James. We may be wondering how he will fit into this group and help take pragmatism to the next level.
Part 2, Chapter 10 - Burlington, Section Two
The author has given a history about the change in thought with the example of
Dartmouth College. The tide is turning in the late 1700s and early 1800s to focus more on the principles of law established by Jefferson regarding the public and less on the individual. This helps the reader understand the times in which Holmes, James, Peirce and Dewey have been living.
Part 2, Chapter 10 - Burlington, Section Three
The author is giving the reader insight into a second type of transcendentalism that
was making its way through New England. This form was conservative and wanted to retain systems and institutions, where the other form disliked systems and was more liberal. The author is using this to show how the thinking of the time was multifaceted. It was a period of intellectual upheaval and meditation. It was part of the basis of the thinking that was taught to Holmes, Peirce, James, and Dewey.
Part 2, Chapter 10 - Burlington, Section Four
We now understand how the Vermont transcendentalism is associated with
pragmatic philosophy. It is the basis of Dewey's philosophy, which will take
pragmatism to the highest level, before falling to the wayside in the light of the Cold War.
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The Metaphysical Club
by John Shook
The Metaphysical Club was an informal discussion group of scholarly friends, close from their associations with Harvard University, that started in 1871 and continued until spring 1879.
This Club had two primary phases, distinguished from each other by the most active participants and the topics pursued.
The first phase of the Metaphysical Club lasted from 1871 until mid-1875, while the second phase existed from early 1876 until spring 1879. The dominant theme of first phase was pragmatism, while idealism dominated the second phase.
Pragmatism - First Phase:
The "pragmatist" first phase of the Metaphysical Club was organized by Charles Peirce (Harvard graduate and occasional lecturer), Chauncey Wright (Harvard graduate and occasional lecturer), and William James (Harvard graduate and instructor of physiology and psychology).
These three philosophers were then formulating recognizably pragmatist views. Other active members of the "Pragmatist" Metaphysical Club were two more Harvard graduates and local lawyers, Nicholas St. John Green and Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr., who were also advocating pragmatic views of human conduct and law.
Idealist - Second Phase:
The "idealist" second phase of the Metaphysical Club was organized and led by idealists who showed no interest in pragmatism: Thomas Davidson (independent scholar), George Holmes Howison (professor of philosophy at nearby Massachusetts Institute of Technology), and James Elliot Cabot (Harvard graduate and Emerson scholar). There was some continuity between the two phases.
Although Peirce had departed in April 1875 for a year in Europe, and Wright died in September 1875, most of the original members from the first phase were available for a renewed second phase.
By January 1876 the "Idealist" Metaphysical Club (for James still was referring to a metaphysical club in a letter of 10 February 1876) was meeting regularly for discussions first on Hume, then proceeding through Kant and Hegel in succeeding years.
Besides Davidson, Howison, and Cabot, the most active members appear to be William James, Charles Carroll Everett (Harvard graduate and Dean of its Divinity School), George Herbert Palmer (Harvard graduate and professor of philosophy), and Francis Ellingwood Abbott (Harvard graduate and independent scholar).
Other occasional participants include Francis Bowen (Harvard graduate and professor of philosophy), Nicholas St. John Green, Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr., and G. Stanley Hall (Harvard graduate and psychologist).
The Metaphysical Club was a nine-year episode within a much broader pattern of informal philosophical discussion that occurred in the Boston area from the 1850s to the 1880s.
Chauncey Wright, renowned in town for his social demeanor and remarkable intelligence, had been a central participant in various philosophy clubs and study groups dating as early as his own college years at Harvard in the early 1850s.
Wright, Peirce, James, and Green were the most active members of the Metaphysical Club from its inception in 1871.
By mid-1875 the original Metaphysical Club was no longer functioning; James was the strongest connection between the first and second phases, helping Thomas Davidson to collect the members of the "Idealist" Metaphysical Club.
Link to the Hegel Club:
James also was a link to the next philosophical club, the "Hegel Club", which began in fall 1880 in connection with George Herbert Palmer's seminar on Hegel. By winter 1881 the Hegel Club had expanded to include several from the Metaphysical Club, including James, Cabot, Everett, Howison, Palmer, Abbott, Hall, and the newcomer William Torrey Harris who had taken up residence in Concord.
This Hegel Club was in many ways a continuation of the St. Louis Hegelian Society from the late 1850s and 1860s, as Harris, Howison, Davidson, and their Hegelian students had moved east.
The Concord Summer School of Philosophy (1879-1888), under the leadership of Amos Bronson Alcott and energized by the Hegelians, soon brought other young American scholars into the orbit of the Cambridge clubs, such as John Dewey.
The "Pragmatist" Metaphysical Club met on irregular occasions, probably fortnightly during the Club's most active period of fall 1871 to winter 1872, and they usually met in the home of Charles Pierce or William James in Cambridge.
This Club met for four years until mid-1875, when their diverse career demands, extended travels to Europe, and early deaths began to disperse them. The heart of the club was the close bonds between five very unusual thinkers on the American intellectual scene.
Chauncey Wright and Charles Sanders Peirce shared the same scientific interests and outlook, having adopted a positivistic and evolutionary stance, and their common love for philosophical discussion sparked the club's beginnings. Wright's old friend and lawyer Nicholas St. John Green was glad to be included, as was Peirce's good friend William James who had also gone down the road towards empiricism and evolutionism. William James brought along his best friend, the lawyer Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr., who like Green was mounting a resistance to the legal formalism dominating that era. Green brought fellow lawyer Joseph Bangs Warner, and the group also invited two philosophers who had graduated with them from Harvard, Francis Ellingwood Abbott and John Fiske, who were both interested in evolution and metaphysics.
Other occasional members were Henry Ware Putnam, Francis Greenwood Peabody, and William Pepperell Montague.
Activities of the "Pragmatist" Metaphysical Club were recorded only by Peirce, William James, and William's brother Henry James, who all describe intense and productive debates on many philosophical problems.
Both Peirce and James recalled that the name of the club was the "Metaphysical" Club. Peirce suggests that the name indicated their determination to discuss deep scientific and metaphysical issues despite that era's prevailing positivism and agnosticism. A successful "Metaphysical Club" in London was also not unknown to them. Peirce later stated that the club witnessed the birth of the philosophy of pragmatism in 1871, which he elaborated (without using the term 'pragmatism' itself) in published articles in the late 1870s. His own role as the "father of pragmatism" should not obscure, in Peirce's view, the importance of Nicholas Green. Green should be recognized as pragmatism's "grandfather" because, in Peirce's words, Green had "often urged the importance of applying Alexander Bain's definition of belief as 'that upon which a man is prepared to act,' from which 'pragmatism is scarce more than a corollary'." Chauncey Wright also deserves considerable credit, for as both Peirce and James recall, it was Wright who demanded a phenomenalist and fallibilist empiricism as a vital alternative to rationalistic speculation.
The several lawyers in this club took great interest in evolution, empiricism, and Bain's pragmatic definition of belief.
They were also acquainted with James Stephen's A General View of the Criminal Law in England, which also pragmatically declared that people believe because they must act. At the time of the Metaphysical Club, Green and Holmes were primarily concerned with special problems in determining criminal states of mind and general problems of defining the nature of law in a culturally evolutionary way.
Both Green and Holmes made important advances in the theory of negligence which relied on a pragmatic approach to belief and established a "reasonable person" standard. Holmes went on to explore pragmatic definitions of law that look forward to future judicial consequences rather than to past legislative decisions.
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While reading the book - try to take some notes about the ideas presented along the following lines:
1. Science
2. Religion
3. Philosophy
4. Psychology
5. Sociology
6. Evolution
7. Pragmatism
There are very good reasons why this book is not only called The Metaphysical Club but also after the colon: A Story of Ideas in America and the purpose of our discussion of this book is "to discuss those ideas".
Don't just read my posts - but jump right in - the more you post and the more you contribute - the more you will get out of the conversation and the read.
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Remember we are discussing major ideas and events right off the bat:
Ideas:
Metaphysics *
Pragmatism *
The Metaphysical Club *
Transcendentalism *
Individualism *
Free Markets *
Liberal Individualism *
Organicism *
Burlington Philosophy *
Theory of Dual Identity *
Events:
The American Civil War *
People:
Louis Agassiz
William James
Charles Peirce
Chauncey Wright
Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.
Kant
John Dewey *
Archibald Dewey *
Daniel Webster*
Eleazer Wheelock *
John Wheelock *
James Marsh *
John Locke *
Samuel Taylor Coleridge *
Schelling *
Joseph Torrey *
Henry Steele Commanger
Huxley
Groups
Vermont Transcendentalists *
American Civil Liberties Union
National Association for the Advancement of Colored People
League for Industrial Democracy
New York Teacher's Union
The American Association of University Professors
New School for Social Research
Government:
The Constitution *
Bill of Rights *
Places
Harvard *
Lawrence Scientific School *
Johns Hopkins University *
Dartmouth College *
University of Vermont *
Words
Tabula Rasa
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Chapter abstracts are short descriptions of events that occur in each chapter.
They highlight major plot events and detail the important relationships and characteristics of characters and objects.
The Chapter Abstracts that I will add can be used to review what you have read, and to prepare you for what you will read.
These highlights can be a reading guide or you can use them in your discussion to discuss any of these points. I add them so these bullet points can serve as a "refresher" or a stimulus for further discussion.
Here are a few:
New Abstracts:
* Everything begins to change around the time of the Metaphysical Club.
* John Dewey wanted solidarity and was close to being a socialist in his views.
* Dartmouth was the brain child of Eleazer Wheelock.
* Son, John Wheelock, became president of the university after his father's death.
* Dartmouth University was shut down after a court case with Dartmouth College
* John Locke believed in tabula rasa - empty mind - and in liberal individualism.
* Marsh believed societies were created by individuals who lacked self-realization.
* Marsh spent his life searching for a philosophy that integrated with evangelical Christianity.
* Dewey became interested in philosophy after a biology lesson regarding Huxley's description of the human body
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New Questions:
a) How did Dewey take pragmatism to the next step, which paved the way to the new theory of dual identity?
b) What was the difference between Kant and Hegel, and how did they influence pragmatic thought?
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Transcendentalism:
Transcendentalism was a religious and philosophical movement that was developed during the late 1820s and 1830s in the Eastern region of the United States as a protest to the general state of culture and society, and in particular, the state of intellectualism at Harvard University and the doctrine of the Unitarian church taught at Harvard Divinity School.
Among the transcendentalists' core beliefs was the "inherent goodness of both people and nature".
Transcendentalists believed that society and its institutions—particularly organized religion and political parties—ultimately corrupted the purity of the individual.
They had faith that people are at their best when truly "self-reliant" and independent.
It is only from such real individuals that true community could be formed.
Origins
Transcendentalism first arose among New England congregationalists, who differed from orthodox Calvinism on two issues.
They rejected predestination, and they emphasized the unity instead of the trinity of God.
Following the skepticism of David Hume, the transcendentalists took the stance that empirical proofs of religion were not possible.
Transcendentalism developed as a reaction against 18th Century rationalism, John Locke's philosophy of Sensualism, and the predestinationism of New England Calvinism. It is fundamentally a variety of diverse sources such as Hindu texts like the Vedas, the Upanishads and the Bhagavad Gita, various religions, and German idealism.
Emerson's Nature
The publication of Ralph Waldo Emerson's 1836 essay - Nature is usually considered the watershed moment at which transcendentalism became a major cultural movement.
Emerson wrote in his 1837 speech "The American Scholar": "We will walk on our own feet; we will work with our own hands; we will speak our own minds... A nation of men will for the first time exist, because each believes himself inspired by the Divine Soul which also inspires all men."
Emerson closed the essay by calling for a revolution in human consciousness to emerge from the brand new idealist philosophy:
So shall we come to look at the world with new eyes. It shall answer the endless inquiry of the intellect, � What is truth? and of the affections, � What is good? by yielding itself passive to the educated Will. ...Build, therefore, your own world. As fast as you conform your life to the pure idea in your mind, that will unfold its great proportions. A correspondent revolution in things will attend the influx of the spirit.
The Transcendental Club
In the same year, transcendentalism became a coherent movement with the founding of the Transcendental Club in Cambridge, Massachusetts, on September 8, 1836, by prominent New England intellectuals including George Putnam (1807�78; the Unitarian minister in Roxbury), Ralph Waldo Emerson, and Frederick Henry Hedge. From 1840, the group published frequently in their journal The Dial, along with other venues.
Second Wave of Transcendentalists
By the late 1840s, Emerson believed the movement was dying out, and even more so after the death of Margaret Fuller in 1850.
"All that can be said", Emerson wrote, "is that she represents an interesting hour and group in American cultivation".
There was, however, a second wave of transcendentalists, including Moncure Conway, Octavius Brooks Frothingham, Samuel Longfellow and Franklin Benjamin Sanborn.
Notably, the transgression of the spirit, most often evoked by the poet's prosaic voice, is said to endow in the reader a sense of purposefulness. This is the underlying theme in the majority of transcendentalist essays and papers—all of which are centered on subjects which assert a love for individual expression.
Major Transcendentalist Figures
The major figures in the movement were Ralph Waldo Emerson, Henry David Thoreau, John Muir, Margaret Fuller and Amos Bronson Alcott.
Other prominent transcendentalists included Louisa May Alcott, Charles Timothy Brooks, Orestes Brownson, William Ellery Channing, William Henry Channing, James Freeman Clarke, Christopher Pearse Cranch, Walt Whitman, John Sullivan Dwight, Convers Francis, William Henry Furness, Frederic Henry Hedge, Sylvester Judd, Theodore Parker, Elizabeth Palmer Peabody, George Ripley, Thomas Treadwell Stone, Emily Dickinson, and Jones Very.
(Source:
More:
Jones Very (no photo)
George Ripley (no photo)
Thomas Treadwell Stone (no photo)
Elizabeth Palmer Peabody (no photo)
Frederic Henry Hedge (no photo)
William Henry Furness (no photo)
Convers Francis (no photo)
John Sullivan Dwight (no photo)
James Freeman Clarke (no photo)
William H. Channing (no photo)
William E. Channing (no photo)
Orestes Brownson (no photo)
Charles Timothy Brooks (no photo)
Moncure Conway (no photo)
Octavius Brooks Frothingham (no photo)
Samuel Longfellow (no photo)
Franklin Benjamin Sanborn (no photo)
George Putnam (no photo)
Ralph Waldo Emerson
Emily Dickinson
Theodore Parker
Sylvester Judd
John Muir
Walt Whitman
Christopher Pearse Cranch
Louisa May Alcott
Henry David Thoreau
Margaret Fuller
Amos Bronson Alcott
David Hume
both by
Ralph Waldo Emerson
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"On January 18, 1859, in Burlington, Vermont, a little boy named John Dewey fell into a pail of scalding water. His parents applied oil to his burns and wrapped him in cotton batting, but there was another accident and the batting caught fire.
The next day the child died. He was two and a half. It is a sad and terrible story. but the parents found a means of consolation, and nine months later almost to the day, on October 1859, they had another baby. He was named after his dead brother.
This John Dewey lived to be ninety-three and became one of the most celebrated public intellectuals of his time.
He published books on psychology, ethics, education, logic, religion, politics, philosophy and art; he wrote for scholarly journals and for journals of opinion; and he lectured before almost every kind of audience.
He helped to create, and sometimes to lead, many prominent political and educational organizations: the American Civil Liberties Union, the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, the League for Industrial Democracy, the New York Teacher's Union. the American Association of University Professors, and the New School for Social Research.
"It is scarcely an exaggeration to say that for a generation no major issue was clarified until Dewey had spoken." Henry Steele Commanger wrote in 1950 , when Dewey was ninety-one and still active. And there were few public issues on which Dewey did not speak."
Questions: What did you think of the beginning of this chapter and how important do you think Dewey will be towards taking "pragmatism" to the next step? How many of you were familiar with John Dewey and were familiar with all of the professional organizations that he was a part of?
How did you like the beginning of this chapter?
I was a little shocked by the beginning of this chapter. I found the injuries of the first little John Dewey bizarrly coincidental -- boiling and burning... as if some kind of great heat was going to get him one way or another. And if the scalding and the fire didn't do it, the poor thing would probably have been hit by lightning to round it all off.At any rate, I also cringed a little at the idea of naming the next baby boy after the deceased baby boy, but perhaps that is an acknowledged practice and I have been blessed enough not to have familiarity with that sort of protocol.
Despite all that, my immediate impression of Dewey (of whom I was only vaguely aware of historically & probably confused him with Thomas E. Dewey) was very positive, which I think Menand intended. His influence was apparently far-reaching, and I enjoyed the quote by Henry Steele Commager, "It is scarcely an exaggeration to say that for a generation no major issue was clarified until Dewey had spoken."
I also really enjoyed the subsequent description of Dewey's liberalism:
"...liberalism stands for an opposition to the reproduction of hierarchies -- political, social, cultural, and even conceptual -- Dewey was probably as liberal a thinker as the United States has produced."A man after my own heart :)
I thought Menand injected himself into the text in a particularly revealing manner when he included the verse from Blake's poem as representative of "the Romantic reaction, the great renunciation of mechanism in post-Enlightment European culture. In Blake's lines:
The Atoms of Democritus
And Newton's Particles of Light
Are sands upon the Red sea shore,
Where Israel's tents do shine so bright."
Menand's use of Blake's poetry indicates his own romantic nature.
William Blake
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Do not feel left out - I think I did the same thing.
That is a great observation about the author's use of Blake's poetry as it is as revealing as the asides and sidebars Jacques Barzun did in From Dawn to Decadence which is an excellent cultural history work.
by
Jacques BarzunHere is the entire poem by William Blake:
Mock On, Mock On, Voltaire, Rousseau
Mock on, mock on, Voltaire, Rousseau;
Mock on, mock on; 'tis all in vain!
You throw the sand against the wind,
And the wind blows it back again.
And every sand becomes a gem
Reflected in the beams divine;
Blown back they blind the mocking eye,
But still in Israel's paths they shine.
The Atoms of Democritus
And Newton's Particles of Light
Are sands upon the Red Sea shore,
Where Israel's tents do shine so bright.
-- William Blake
William BlakeNote: JG - don't forget to cite Blake.
Bentley wrote: "Note: JG - don't forget to cite Blake...."Okay, sorry, it's done... I wasn't sure if I would need to, since I was actually just quoting straight from the book.
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First off, I remember John Dewey's name from my Educational Philosophy course when I was at the university to get my teaching certificate. And honestly all I remember was his name. Couldn't tell you a thing about him. So at least in the early 1980's he was still mentioned in education courses; and he must have been important because I only remember a couple of names from that course. So I did enjoy the paragraphs in the first section:
"This John Dewey lived to be ninety-three and became one of the most celebrated public intellectuals of his time.
He published books on psychology, ethics, education, logic, religion, politics, philosophy and art; he wrote for scholarly journals and for journals of opinion; and he lectured before almost every kind of audience.
He helped to create, and sometimes to lead, many prominent political and educational organizations: the American Civil Liberties Union, the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, the League for Industrial Democracy, the New York Teacher's Union. the American Association of University Professors, and the New School for Social Research.
"It is scarcely an exaggeration to say that for a generation no major issue was clarified until Dewey had spoken." Henry Steele Commanger wrote in 1950 , when Dewey was ninety-one and still active. And there were few public issues on which Dewey did not speak."
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He certainly lucked out better that his poor baby brother.
I guess he spoke up a lot and probably vociferously (smile).
Thank you Kathy for posting - there are 101 readers of the thread yet I feel that I am alone talking in an elevator somewhere.
Glad folks are reading the threads - but the whole idea is to post your ideas, react to the ideas in the chapter and discuss your own.
Thank you for being another voice in the wilderness.
The next sections seemed unrelated to John Dewey, but I believe that upon my second reading the point is being made that John Dewey lived in a time of change; laws were reinterpreted , eduction reformed, and philosophy was changing quickly. John Dewey, I think was successful then because ". . .his career was that of a man who never looked back. He kept what he wanted from what he had learned and he left the rest behind." (page 237)
"The rousing of his philosophical ambitions happened in biology class." (page 251)
It does look like he used what he learned and applied it to his modern world as it changed. This flexibility must have been a part of what kept him active and on the top of the intellectual game for so long.
Mod
Yes, I noticed too that many people have viewed this thread. It took me more than one reading to actually feel that I could put some thoughts together. This is an intellectually challenging read for me. I really enjoy that -- so many books seem to not expect a reader to be able to work through challenging material and I appreciate that Menand assumes that his readers are smart enough to do so.
However, as much as I like the challenge, I am a bit intimidated that my remarks will definitely not sound as intelligent as the book. I guess I am glad that I am not an author.
Bentley wrote: "Thank you Kathy for posting - there are 101 readers of the thread yet I feel that I am alone talking in an elevator somewhere.Glad folks are reading the threads - but the whole idea is to post your ideas, react to the ideas in the chapter and discuss your own. y ..."
I'm not sure if I have my own ideas yet, but I will work on the reacting.
I do think that race relations and slavery is a big theme in this book. The Civil War and its aftermath were a defining event for our country. I thought it interesting that Vermont Transcendentalists were so different than those of the average Vermonter. (see page 250) I am continually amazed that the so many Northerners were such racists. I guess I just assumed that because they opposed slavery that the realized the all humans were equally human.
Mod
I am sure that some folks have questions while they are reading this material and this is the place to discuss these questions with others like you are doing Kathy.
Mod
Glad folks are reading the threads - but the whole id..."
Well at first they really did not oppose slavery - not really - but eventually got to that point - I guess I have trouble with the word racist for these folks - they actually thought that the African Americans were another race which was better off being taken care of by their owners. Like a parent with a child. They did not know any better and their attitudes though so "fantastically flawed" would be viewed correctly as racist views today - were really not racist at all for that time period.
They did not see the African Americans as being just that Americans - they viewed them as slaves - as a lot of man that was not worth what a white man was worth. You only have to look at our constitution to see language befitting that belief. There are so many beliefs which are so backward being viewed from the perspective of this day and age - it would make your head spin probably if you were in a time machine and sent back to that period in our history and you would see firsthand the most powerful and the most brilliant of our countrymen believing this hogwash - including those esteemed scientists at Harvard. I think it is very hard to root out prejudice, bias and stupidity. And maybe those are better words to describe their belief system - I think many of these folks were kind and well intentioned except towards African Americans. So sad for these human beings being trapped because of the color of their skin. Such futility and for so long even after the Civil War. You feel embarrassed when reading some of these chapters.
Yes, I understand what you are saying. It is unfair to measure one generation by our modern standards. And certainly more than just slavery and race. Some of what was termed science in these times seems laughable to us now, but without the earlier theories and observations we would not be where we are now. I hope that we can claim some forward progression in our race relations now. We are "dwarfs standing on the shoulders of giants." (Bernard of Chartres)
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See article -
Or Civil War Medicine - ghastly
I guess we can ask ourselves as compared to what - as compared to Agassiz's theories - we can absolutely say that there have been gigantic leaps (and in fact we have an African American President - something that would not have been able to occur during the time of the Metaphysical Club) - but in the world at large have things changed that dramatically? - In many places - thankfully yes.
By the way I love the quote - thank you for adding it.
Bentley wrote: "I guess we can ask ourselves as compared to what - as compared to Agassiz's theories - we can absolutely say that there have been gigantic leaps (and in fact we have an African American President - something that would not have been able to occur during the time of the Metaphysical Club) - but in the world at large have things changed that dramatically? - In many places - thankfully yes...."But yet to have a woman president...
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Bentley wrote: "Yes, very true Janice - why do you think that is? Do you think that it has something to do with our heritage or theories described in the book - do you think that there is prejudice against minori..."I don't know, Bentley. It is an odd and frustrating paradox. If I ask myself the question 'If I had to be born female (again), which country would I choose to be born in,' my answer would unhesitatingly be the U.S. even with its appalling lack of female leadership.
On the other hand, the countries that have had female leaders (including also I think Myanmar/Burma, and countries of South America) are not countries I would want to live life as a female because of the gender bias that permeates the general culture and male/female relations.
I do think there are still many prejudices against minorities in this country (altho' of course, women are not a minority, they are just treated and labeled as such). If it has anything to do with our heritage or the theories in this book, it would be because the dominant voice in all this is the white male acting as absolute authority on all these issues.
I might even add the adjective "Christian" or perhaps just religious, because organized religion & belief systems, which underly all world cultures, have never been kind to women. In this country, where Protestantism dominates, there is a history of fundamentalist & literal interpretations of the Bible which have kept all sorts of minorities in the shadows. But Christianity is not the only culprit, the world is full of misinterpreted and misrepresented religions that denegrate and/or dismiss women.
I am currently reading The Language of the Goddess, where the author collates the evidence of a pre Indo-European culture that was founded on matriarchy and the worship of goddesses -- a culture of peace, agriculture, art and religion, where weapons and war were unknown until the advent of the patriarchal invasion of the Indo-Europeans. Once upon a time, many many millenium ago...
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Marija Gimbutas
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Yes women do face an uphill battle. Thank you for your great insights.
Don't forget to edit your post and add the citation at the bottom.
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Marija GimbutasAre men intimidated by women and is that why they are kept down. If women are not in the minority then why don't women do more for themselves and speak out and help other women. Women sometimes seem to be their own worst enemy - and sometimes are not seen as team players. Sad really - because I find women to be actually harder working than many men. The African Americans banded together to obtain better treatment but since women's suffrage - I am not sure what strides women are making,
Janice, thanks for the book tip.
Bentley wrote: "Are men intimidated by women and is that why they are kept down. If women are not in the minority then why don't women do more for themselves and speak out and help other women. Women sometimes seem to be their own worst enemy - and sometimes are not seen as team players. Sad really - because I find women to be actually harder working than many men. The African Americans banded together to obtain better treatment but since women's suffrage - I am not sure what strides women are making..."Yes, we women are often our own worst enemies, mainly because the cultural programming runs bone deep and seems almost molecular in its permeations. We believe the program.
I don't know if men are intimidated by women. I do know that men -- of all races & ethnic backgrounds -- have a sense of entitlement that somehow presumes superiority over women. It is an attitude that is insidiously woven into cultural norms.
An example:
Dave Letterman often has Connie Chun on his late night talk show. When he introduces her, he says she is "very bright" as well as "lovely to look at." these sound like compliments giving Connie Chun her due recognition as an anchorwoman. But would he, then, say that Tom Brokaw or Brian Williams was "very bright" and also very handsome? No. He assumes the two male news anchors are intelligent, and he does not feel the need to point it out, nor would he mention their looks (unless in a joke) because what they look like has nothing to do with the job they perform. Women are generally not presumed to be intelligent, more especially if they are also lovely to look at.
The extent of this problem is more obvious when we realize that many women not only don't see how remarks like that continue the stereotype, they often believe it too, and are as pleased to be described as "lovely" as they are to be labeled "bright," or maybe even more so.
Gender issues are so deeply engrained it requires re-education and re-patterning to make any headway at all, and as you've mentioned, it is taking a very, very long time to accomplish. I often think it's a case of one step forward, two steps back.
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You are making some interesting associations and they are probably quite true.
Didn't Obama get into trouble with one of the State Attorney Generals for making these kind of comments?
But why in some countries even England are they willing and able to see the strength of purpose and talent of women leaders but not here. I really think that women candidates for example have both hands tied behind their back before they begin. They cannot be viewed as ambitious or aggressive or assertive - heaven forbid then they are less of a woman and are called unsavory names. About 15 years ago women even dressed more formally and in suits with little ties in a bow and I actually thought they were making more headway then. Now they have seemed to relax their dress code and are slipping back it seems from making progress. Are they now seen as being more attractive and therefore less competent. It is is a shame. I think in some ways our country is still backward when it comes to minorities and women.
Bentley wrote: "Chapter Ten begins with this quote:"On January 18, 1859, in Burlington, Vermont, a little boy named John Dewey fell into a pail of scalding water. His parents applied oil to his burns and wrappe..." I have heard the name Dewey all my life. He is someone talked about by my father. And everytime I went into a library until the time of the computer, I consulted the Dewey Decimal system.
The story of the pail of water and the death of the first John Dewey is significant. I imagine he heard the story all the time when he was a child and his life most likely took on double significance as he attempted to live, not only his life but also his brothers. And it seems it had a positive influence on his life.
I am enjoying this book. Thank you for your explanations above. I sometimes think I need a sociogram of the participants in the flow of ideas in order to get all of their connections straight.
Sherry wrote: "I am enjoying this book. Thank you for your explanations above. I sometimes think I need a sociogram of the participants in the flow of ideas in order to get all of their connections straight."Great idea, Sherry. I agree that would be nice.
Kathy wrote: "Sherry wrote: "I am enjoying this book. Thank you for your explanations above. I sometimes think I need a sociogram of the participants in the flow of ideas in order to get all of their connectio..."I have actually tried to figure out how I would do it. It's an intimidating undertaking!
Sherry wrote: "Kathy wrote: "Sherry wrote: "I am enjoying this book. Thank you for your explanations above. I sometimes think I need a sociogram of the participants in the flow of ideas in order to get all of t...I have actually tried to figure out how I would do it. It's an intimidating undertaking!..."
Maybe an Excel sheet :)
I don't know if it is racist or simply tribal, but when I meet someone new, color is the first thing I notice then the sex of the person. I like to think that we are hard wired that way.
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Maybe it is a tribal thing - take my dog - my dog recognizes who belongs in an area and who does not - just by the way they look and probably by smell too - I never can figure out how he does that - but he knows.
Maybe it is programmed by our language. I would say the Chinese woman not the woman chinese. Does our brain process the information in the order in which it would be spoken?
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Patricrk wrote: "Maybe it is programmed by our language. I would say the Chinese woman not the woman chinese. Does our brain process the information in the order in which it would be spoken?"I believe there are linguistic studies that prove just exactly that. And it is language that continues to transmit culture... an example of this would be the Haw'n language, which was getting lost just as the whole Haw'n culture was disappearing. The decision to bring back the Hawaiian language into the schools has also stimulated a re-education of the culture, which was the intention of the language revival.
The History Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
The Language of the Goddess (other topics)The Language of the Goddess (other topics)
From Dawn to Decadence: 500 Years of Western Cultural Life, 1500 to the Present (other topics)
The American Scholar: Self-Reliance, Compensation (other topics)
Nature (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Marija Gimbutas (other topics)Marija Gimbutas (other topics)
William Blake (other topics)
Jacques Barzun (other topics)
William Blake (other topics)
More...
For the week of August 26th - September 1st, we are reading Chapter Ten of The Metaphysical Club.
Our motto at The History Book Club is that it is never too late to begin a book. We are with you the entire way.
The tenth week's reading assignment is:
Week Ten - August 26th - September 1st
Part Four - Chapter Ten
Burlington (235 - 254)
We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.
This book was kicked off on June 26th. We look forward to your participation. Amazon and Barnes and Noble and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, or on your Kindle. Make sure to pre-order now if you haven't already. Please also patronage your local book stores.
This weekly thread will be opened up on August 26th or earlier
There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.
Bentley will be leading this discussion. Assisting Moderator Kathy will be the back up.
Welcome,
~Bentley
TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL
REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS - ON EACH WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREAD - WE ONLY DISCUSS THE PAGES ASSIGNED OR THE PAGES WHICH WERE COVERED IN PREVIOUS WEEKS. IF YOU GO AHEAD OR WANT TO ENGAGE IN MORE EXPANSIVE DISCUSSION - POST THOSE COMMENTS IN ONE OF THE SPOILER THREADS. THESE CHAPTERS HAVE A LOT OF INFORMATION SO WHEN IN DOUBT CHECK WITH THE CHAPTER OVERVIEW AND SUMMARY TO RECALL WHETHER YOUR COMMENTS ARE ASSIGNMENT SPECIFIC. EXAMPLES OF SPOILER THREADS ARE THE GLOSSARY, THE BIBLIOGRAPHY, THE INTRODUCTION AND THE BOOK AS A WHOLE THREADS.
Notes:
It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.
Citations:
If an author or book is mentioned other than the book and author being discussed, citations must be included according to our guidelines. Also, when citing other sources, please provide credit where credit is due and/or the link. There is no need to re-cite the author and the book we are discussing however.
If you need help - here is a thread called the Mechanics of the Board which will show you how:
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/2...
Glossary - SPOILER THREAD
Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed.
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Bibliography - SPOILER THREAD
There is a Bibliography where books cited in the text are posted with proper citations and reviews. We also post the books that the author used in his research or in his notes. Please also feel free to add to the Bibliography thread any related books, etc with proper citations. No self promotion, please. And please do not place long list of books on the discussion threads. Please add to the bibliography thread where we love to peruse all entries. Make sure you properly cite your additions to make it easier for all.
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...
Book as a Whole and Final Thoughts - SPOILER THREAD
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...
Table of Contents and Syllabus:
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...