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This is the discussion topic for our chosen October, 2013, Classic SF/F Novel read and discussion:


Stranger in a Strange Land by Robert Heinlein

Winner of the 1962 Hugo Award for best novel.


(The third and final of our Robert Heinlein series of discussions.)

ok folks...this book made RAH one of the heros of the hippies back in the 60s...free love and all of it you'll see here...now i ask you, how is it that the man who wrote Starship Troopers came to write Stranger in a Strange Land?

Because he was a creative, imaginative man.

He seemed to be able to explore different philosophical perspectives through his writing without adopting those ideas. While there are many authors who write from their particular philosophical background (Philip K Dick's soft determinism, for example) others use their writing to explore ideas fully. Heinlein has/had a reputation for being very socially libertarian. Whether he was or not, I don't know. What is really difficult for me to grasp is how he wrote The Moon is a Harsh Mistress and Starship Troopers. Though maybe writing from both extremes of a spectrum has it's own kind of logic.

my take-awsy from these three books (Starship Troopers, The Moon is a Harsh Misstriss, and Stranger): in ST he was showing his ideas about responsibilty to society at large; in Moon he was showing his ideas about responsibility to self; in Stranger the joy and freedom he saw emerging from the two. Three legs of the coffee table, each both in conflict with and complementing the other.

for example the last thing the military (as in ST) wants is a free-thinker (as in Stranger), in fact that's the first thing they try to crush out of you in basic training, yet the military's job is to protect the very society that those very free thinkers live in

For me these three quite effectively chart Heinlein's decline in to self indulgent tosh.
I love the early space operas; tunnel in the sky, have spacesuit.., space family stone etc. For me starship troopers very much marks the end of that era, whilst a great read it does get a little waffly in places.
I was surprised to find that Moon came after Stranger as I feel it has more affinity with the earlier novels.
After that it's just a downhill slide into the horror of Job and Number of the beast and an obsession with large breasted heroines!

This is a real classic of a book. I first read it as a teenager and I am now in my 40's and it just gets better with every re read.

I loved stranger when I read it a couple of years ago and have 're-read it a couple of times. I read moon is a harsh mistress since then and I really liked that as well. But I agree the job was terrible.

Brenda wrote: "Because he was a creative, imaginative man."

BAM!

Mat wrote: "For me starship troopers very much marks the end of that era, whilst a great read it does get a little waffly in places. I was surprised to find that Moon came after Stranger as I feel it has more affinity with the earlier novels. ..."


I feel the same way. By the time "Stranger in a Strange Land" came out, I was reading Heinlein as it was released, so I should have a pretty intuitive feel for the publication order. And yet, several of his novels after Strangers (Podkayne, Glory Road, Farnham's Freehold, The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress) feel like they ought to precede it stylistically, even though they also diverge a bit from his earlier adventure stories. "Stranger" feels more like a stylist predecessor to I Will Fear No Evil, Time Enough for Love, & The Number of the Beast (none of which I cared for.)

Have you ever read his first novel, the one Spider Robinson & Virginia Heinlein published after his death? I tried, but couldn't. It read like one of his later books - the ones I hated. I don't think his novel writing nor his style evolved as much as emerged as publishers & society allowed it.

I seem to have an edition in hands which is quite longer than the originally published one. RAH has shortened the original one, it says in a preface.
Which version do you read?

i have both versions...in later years a "uncut" version was released

I've heard about that uncut version, but had no interest in reading it. I figured most of it was probably Jubal proselytizing. He does enough of that. I've never known anyone to really compare them, though.

The editors forced the cuts before the first publication. This is not necessarily a bad thing. The shorter version is the one that most of us know and love, and the one that won all the awards, etc. The longer version was released many years later.

i always thought the uncut version was just to gin up some sales...

Mat wrote: "For me these three quite effectively chart Heinlein's decline in to self indulgent tosh.
I love the early space operas; tunnel in the sky, have spacesuit.., space family stone etc. For me starship ..."

In general I agree. I was a big Heinlein fan until Stranger. You think you know an author, and then . . .

Jim wrote: "Have you ever read his first novel, the one Spider Robinson & Virginia Heinlein published after his death? I tried, but couldn't. It read like one of his later books - the ones I hated. I don't ..."

An interesting topic to explore. It has always seemed to me that several of the old SF masters became more graphic as the times allowed.

G33z3r wrote: "Mat wrote: "For me starship troopers very much marks the end of that era, whilst a great read it does get a little waffly in places. I was surprised to find that Moon came after Stranger as I feel ..."

Amen. You have put the arrow in the very clout.

You could I suppose peruse his biography or autobiography, and find out when the respective works were WRITTEN. Their publication order is sometimes due to quite outside factors.

Philip José Farmer certainly pushed the limits, Doc. I think Heinlein was very hemmed in by his contract with the YA books & it was his bread & butter. I don't think it was a bad thing, either.

read Grumbles From The Grave...RAH had alot to say about fights he had with his publishers

I did skim 'Grumbles' years ago, but had little sympathy for Heinlein's gripes. After trying to read that first book, I have less. His YA books were very influential on me & are still some of my favorites. Pretty much everything he wrote from 1970 on wasn't worth reading, IMO. Oh, Lazarus & Friday were fun, but he got way too preachy & seemed to glory in incest.

I never cared for how he wrote sex into his books, even 'Stranger', although it served a purpose here. That's not surprising given his limited characterization. There isn't much difference between Jubal, Mike, & Ben, for instance - or Jill for that matter.

If I recall correctly, didn't he write Starship Troopers not long after meeting Virginia?

Hi,

My thought is that Virginia was much of the inspiration for his woman characters. She was in her own way perhaps even more remarkable than he was, and somewhat more progressive I expect. I have a feeling that the bulk of his earlier novels - which were more action adventure type things were penned if not published during his first marriage.

Cheers, Greg.

I just finished this novel in time. It was a great idea to read those 3 different RAH novels because they complement each other very well and I wouldn't have understood this if I'd have read them singularly.

Here is my review:

This is one of the books that . "Do you grok that?" - "Or are you only an egg?" - "No, thou art god!"
Those three sentences became quite popular in the 60s and to grok even made its way into dictionaries. A book like this surely has earned some awards - in this case it is the Hugo in 1962.

I've read the original manuscript length version which is some 25% longer than the first published edition. And I see why it needed to be shortened - I skipped large parts at the end because they became a bit repetitive.

This novel completes The Moon is a Harsh Mistress and Starship Troopers: It adds discussions on religion, humor, arts, sexuality and liberalism to the themes of the other two novels - politics, economy, military. Some of the themes are discussed in sermon length by Heinlein's incarnation in the novel - one of the protagonists called Jubal.

In fact, it is a mashup of science fiction, social satire and a good pinch of cheap eroticism. In some cases I needed more than a little bit of patience to get through his ramblings.

But I think it is very worth reading - as a reflection of the 60s, not as a modern piece of science fiction. And I can see where older readers would give it 5 stars.

Andreas wrote: "I just finished this novel in time. It was a great idea to read those 3 different RAH novels because they complement each other very well and I wouldn't have understood this if I'd have read them s..."

I'm an older reader, and "Stranger" made me permanently cautious about Heinlein books thereafter.

Spooky1947, I know you were interested in the just-released Heinlein biography by William Patterson, Robert A. Heinlein: In Dialogue with His Century Volume 2: The Man Who Learned Better.

So I thought you might be interested in . It reads more like an alternate biography, since apparently Heer didn't care for Patterson's "hagiography".

When I was a kid, some authority figure (I don't remember who) said that in order to be a true sci fi fan, you had to read this book, Farenheit 451, and Dune. I always thought this was the questionable one out of the three- there was a lot more authorial soapboxing than actual book going on. I think Moon is a Harsh Mistress would have been a better rec for a starting SF fan, but I guess this one made a bigger splash back when it was published.

I think it was the whole 'free love' thing was liked more by the public, although I agree with you. This also hasn't aged nearly as well as 'Harsh Mistress', IMO.

Phil wrote: "When I was a kid, some authority figure (I don't remember who) said that in order to be a true sci fi fan, you had to read this book, Farenheit 451, and Dune. I always..."
Don't you hate those sorts of "Gotta Read" instructions? They are meaningless unless the list is nearer 30 books than three (and maybe I mean three hundred?). Just to get us started - yes, those three would be on my list, along with:-
A Canticle for Leibowitz
The Foundation Trilogy
Lord of Light
The Left Hand of Darkness
Ringworld - and Protector

Though come to think, it might be easier to list maybe five to ten top authors and require three to five books from each?

Alan wrote: "...Though come to think, it might be easier to list maybe five to ten top authors and require three to five books from each?"

I belong to the 'Evolution of SF' group & our deliberations echo this. We read by a book from each decade per month until the 40s or 50s & then we pick a book by one major author (Heinlein, Asimov, etc.) & another book. We're on our second go round & are still feeling overwhelmed. There are just too many choices.

Alan wrote: "Phil wrote: "When I was a kid, some authority figure (I don't remember who) said that in order to be a true sci fi fan, you had to read this book, Farenheit 451, and [book:Dune|2342..."

Definitely go with authors over individual books. I would question some of your book choices, but the only author I would kick off is Niven. I can think of at least four names I'd put on before his, and I haven't even had my coffee yet.

Jim wrote: "Alan wrote: "...Though come to think, it might be easier to list maybe five to ten top authors and require three to five books from each?"

I belong to the 'Evolution of SF' group & our deliberatio..."

That sounds completely awesome, Jim. I'm a full time teacher with two small children, so I would be utterly overwhelmed by that group except during the summer. I might check up on it around May.

I loathed this book. I was actually thrilled with the ending, and if you knew me at all you would know that I don't deal well when my characters are (view spoiler)[ killed off (hide spoiler)]. I was hoping for that particular outcome for at least the last third of the book.

In fairness, the first third I was digging it, the second third turned the tide and by the last third I was fanaticizing the many ways that MVS (view spoiler)[could die (hide spoiler)].

I read it initially, because two GRers were debating the book, one utterly hated it, the other loved it and it was among his favorite. Wow.

I loved Starship Troopers, but I've yet to read The Moon is a Harsh Mistress.

Amelia wrote: "I loathed this book. I was actually trilled with the ending, and if you knew me at all you would know that I don't deal well when my characters are [spoilers removed]. I was actually hoping for tha..."

I read a review somewhere that said there were Heinlein fans and Stranger in a Strange Land fans, and that the two groups did not necessarily overlap.

No one should let this be their only exposure to Heinlein.

Agreed. Like I said, I loved Starship Troopers. I would happily read more Heinlein, just never ever again will I read SiaSL!

I thought it was great way back when I was a teen. I reread it a couple of years ago after, shall we say, a considerable passage of time? I found it empty and meaningless.

I had a similar reaction to rereading Kurt Vonnaegot's The Sirens of Titan, which I loved as a teen. Rereading, I could barely understand why I once thought it great.

Truth is, there are some books that are right at a particular time in our life. There are other books that we will always love.

It isn't the passing fads that define us.

Sarah wrote: "...It isn't the passing fads that define us. "

I agree with both examples. I won't say the fads define the times either, but they can certainly shed some light on them. The world's attitudes have changed an amazing amount in 60 years especially in the areas of sexuality. Just a decade or so earlier, homosexuality could get a person lobotomized & women were supposed to wait on their husbands. The mere thought of 'free love' was enough to get books banned. Admittedly, Heinlein was rather clumsy at it, but at least he made an attempt at normalizing them all. On top of that he made fun of religion. It's no wonder the book was loved by so many & it should be read as instructive for that, IMO.

Still, it hasn't aged well. It was very much a book of its times. To me, the mark of a true classic is timelessness. For instance, Fahrenheit 451 was as good last year as it was way back then & not just to everyone, but to me the teenager & me the grandfather.

I didn't read any of this stuff in HS. Were you assigned it, or just read it for fun?

No, I read all his stuff for fun from an early age. Loved all his juveniles that he wrote for Schribner. Still do. I read The Star Beast a few years ago. Great stuff. After 1970, he got really weird, though. Didn't care for it all that much. By 1980 or so, he was beyond the pale. Awful, although judging by his first novel which wasn't published until after he died, that was exactly what he always wanted to write.

Amelia wrote: "I didn't read any of this stuff in HS. Were you assigned it, or just read it for fun?"

No, but it was hugely popular during the '70s when I was a teen. Everybody read it.

I started earning money babysitting when I was twelve, and almost every dime went for books. I don't recall any adult saying you should or shouldn't read a particular thing.

Amelia wrote: "I didn't read any of this stuff in HS. Were you assigned it, or just read it for fun?"

Man, science fiction in particular totally seemed to hit me right in my hormones! Stranger in a Strange Land, I Will Fear No Evil and Friday were the first three books I read by Heinlein and all of them, on some level, were about what I cared about the most = sex. Throw in Dune, a book about a teen-age boy coming into his power (as the Messiah no less) and I was pretty well spoken for. The vast majority of the science fiction I've read was read in this time period, and the fact that (quiet as kept) so much of it is great writing led me on to my love of literature in general.

And you know what got me started on science fiction? Marvel Comics. At some point, in middle school, all of a sudden Conan the Barbarian (the comic book) was interesting -- whereas I hadn't been interested in him earlier. And then I was interested in reading the actual stories. And in a bunch of those books, you'd find a card/coupon in there for the Science Fiction Book Club. ("What if God was a computer?") Eventually, I broke down, like Sarah, with babysitting and newspaper delivery money. Hm. Wish I could remember what that first book I ordered was. Though, if I remember correctly, you got like, four books for a dollar just for signing up. Then you got sent the main selection every month unless you expressly told them not to send it.

Aaahhh...those were the days.

Um, there is still a science fiction book club that acts the same way. They send me emails all the time, wanting me to "come back!". :)

I got pissed and cancelled my membership when they kept sending me the wrong book and charging me over and over and over again. Bah! That was years ago though, probably shouldn't hold a grudge forever.

I was just curious. I didn't read any of this stuff until my 20's and just because I decided to. I'd never even heard of Vonnegut until I was in my 30's. I read Slaughterhouse-Five and Cat's Cradle and I was in love! I bought half a dozen more and tried my best to get into Breakfast of Champions or Welcome to the Monkey House and just couldn't get hooked. :/

So, what I'm saying is I've got a LONG way to go. :)

And, loving one book by an author does not in any way mean I'm going to love everything by that author...Vonnegut. (God Bless You, Dr. Kevorkian was just weird, and A Man Without a Country was just sort of an old dude rambling.)

It has been so long since I read Slaughterhouse-Five and Cat's Cradle, I have no idea how I would feel now. I did enjoy them back then.

One book may be like an old boyfriend. You meet him years later and wonder what you ever saw in the guy.

Another may be like a favorite teacher. You meet her years later and realize that she is even more wonderful than you remember.

And both books could be by the same author.

Some books will stay with me for life. The hobbit books, for example.

Others are right at a particular time. After the passage of many years it can be difficult to remember why.

Amelia wrote: "So, what I'm saying is I've got a LONG way to go. :)"

I just read A Canticle for Leibowitz on G33z's recommendation and it was magnificent. I was a little surprised because a lot of books, if you missed the moment, you missed the moment. Like, Stranger in a Strange Land, if you don't read it as a teen-ager, you have to have read it at least thirty years ago. Or both. (Ouch!)

Sarah wrote: "One book may be like an old boyfriend. You meet him years later and wonder what you ever saw in the guy.

Another may be like a favorite teacher. You meet her years later and realize that she is ev..."

What she said.

Amelia wrote: I was just curious. I didn't read any of this stuff until my 20's and just because I decided to...."

My father was a huge fantasy, SF, & S&S fan. It was the covers on his Lancer editions of the Conan books by Frank Frazetta that made me want to read very early on. What young boy could see covers like these & not want to read them?!!! Mom didn't think they were appropriate & I got in some trouble, but I swiped & worked my way through them very early on.

And then there were the pulps he subscribed to. This one introduced Heinlein's Glory Road.



As Bobby pointed out, a there was sex, too. Even as a prepubescent lad in the 60's, the idea of well-rounded pretty girls had a lot of appeal. Most of these covers were pretty racy.

Jim wrote: "Amelia wrote: I was just curious. I didn't read any of this stuff until my 20's and just because I decided to...."

My father was a huge fantasy, SF, & S&S fan. It was the covers on his Lancer edit..."

Ha! That's fantastic, Jim! I was a teen in the 80's but they L. Sprage de Camp edited and re-released Conan with those same covers and you're right, they were great. I actually ended up buying a bunch of books of just his art.