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Oliver Twist - Group Read 5 > Oliver Twist: Chapters 44 - 53

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message 1: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Jul 11, 2023 04:40AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8312 comments Mod
OLIVER TWIST: THREAD 6 final thread

Original title Oliver Twist; or, The Parish Boy's Progress



Musical film with Ron Moody as Fagin, Shani Wallis as Nancy and Oliver Reed as Bill Sikes 1968


message 2: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Jul 28, 2023 07:22AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8312 comments Mod
LINKS TO CHAPTERS: (ongoing)

XX � December 1838 - chapters 44�46
XXI � January 1839 - chapters 47�49
XXII � February 1839 - chapter 50
XXIII � March 1839 - chapter 51
XXIV � April 1839 - chapters 52�53

Chapter 44

Chapter 45

Chapter 46

Chapter 47

Chapter 48

Chapter 49

Chapter 50

Chapter 51

Chapter 52

Chapter 53


message 3: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Jul 13, 2023 08:20AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8312 comments Mod
Installment 20

Chapter 44:

Nancy is full of doubts and divided loyalties, and the stress and trauma of what she is about to do has made her lose weight and look ill. She also has violent mood swings. In her mind she thinks of Fagin as being “cڳٲ� and Bill Sikes as “bܳٲ�. Mostly, though she resents Fagin as the person:

“who had led her, step by step, deeper and deeper into an abyss of crime and misery, whence was no escape; still, there were times when, even towards him, she felt some relenting.�

Meanwhile, Sikes and Fagin are discussing how they do not have much business to do. Fagin says there is nothing quite “ready�. At this point in the chapter Nancy starts to gets ready to slip out and meet Rose, but Sikes refuses to let her leave their place and threatens to have the dog:

“have such a grip on your throat as’ll tear some of that screaming voice out.�

Nancy is adament that she needs some air, but when Nancy argues she is met with more violence from Sikes, who thinks “the gal’s stark raving mad�. Soon the time is past midnight, (so Nancy cannot make the meeting place). Bill Sikes tells Fagin that he thought he had “tamed� her, but that she was as bad as ever. He takes solace in the fact that that if she disobeys like this again “l’ll let her a little blood, without troubling the doctor,� and Fagin approves of this veiled threat.

Their altercation has made Fagin suspicious. When Fagin leaves, Nancy lights his way downstairs, and once they are alone at the bottom of the stairs, Fagin now argues from the other side. He encourages Nancy, telling her that he is her staunch friend. Fagin says he knows that Sikes is “a brute, Nance, a brute-beast� and tells Nancy that if she wants revenge on those who treat her like a dog “—like a dog! worse than his dog�, she should come to him.

We are told the reason for this soft persuading is that Fagin suspects that Nancy has formed a new attachment. Fagin would then want to meet the man, and bring him into the gang. But he knows that Sikes would be a danger to the new man and, since he knows so much about their activities, a danger to the everyone in the gang. He wonders if Nancy could be induced to kill Sikes, but perhaps she would recoil from such a plan:

“How,� thought Fagin, as he crept homeward, “can I increase my influence with her? What new power can I acquire?�

Fagin ponders the question, and decides to lay a watch on Nancy, so that he can learn who her new attachment is, and then threaten to reveal the whole story to Sikes unless she complies with him:

“He cast back a dark look, and a threatening motion of the hand, towards the spot where he had left the bolder villain; and went on his way: busying his bony hands in the folds of his tattered garment, which he wrenched tightly in his grasp, as though there were a hated enemy crushed with every motion of his fingers.�



Fagin - Joseph Clayton Clarke ("Kyd") 1889


message 4: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Jul 13, 2023 11:36AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8312 comments Mod
Unlike the brutish Bill Sikes, Fagin is quickwitted and generally a good judge of character. That’s what makes him such an effective gang leader. But somehow Nancy deceives him again and again. In this case he does not see that Nancy is suffering a deep moral dilemma. Instead he assumes she’s involved with someone else, and looks for a way to turn it to his own advantage. His faulty assumption coupled with his inability to believe in Nancy’s loyalty seems likely to set in motion dangerous events.

We also see the theme of mesmerism again, with Fagin talking of his “power� over Nancy. Dickens was often to use this idea of one person having power over another: misusing what the mesmerists called their “energy� or “will�, in all his novels.

In the absence of any illustrations for this chapter, I've included a watercolour by Kyd, which I think illustrates the devilish Fagin very well!


message 5: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Jul 13, 2023 08:25AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8312 comments Mod
Bloodletting

In Chapter 44 Sikes says he will “let [Nancy] a little blood, without troubling the doctor�.

Bloodletting as a medical treatment for a variety of ailments dates back thousands of years. Doctors used methods such as leeches, which would suck the patient’s blood, or phlebotomy, which involved opening the patient’s vein with a lancet or a handheld instrument known as a “f𲹳�. Barbers were often called in to perform phlebotomies, so other things being equal it would not be surprising that Sikes might do it himself.

However, the way Sikes said this made my blood run cold. Even though bloodletting was a common enough medical procedure, it seems like a bad joke he shares with Fagin; yet another way for Sikes to dominate and threaten Nancy.


message 6: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Jul 14, 2023 02:22AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8312 comments Mod
Isn't this a great scene, full of tension and so ominious? We can almost see the wheels going round in Fagins's devious mind. I'll be interested to know what everyone thinks!


message 7: by Michael (last edited Jul 13, 2023 09:36AM) (new) - added it

Michael (michaelk19thcfan) | 145 comments From the moment Sikes enters the novel, one can see a tension between him and Fagin. Fagin uses all his mental abilites and manipulation techniques, including humiliating himself, to keep Fagin and the threat of physical violence at bay. The two represent how men can yield power: threat of physical violence compared to manipulation. To use a modern slang term, the two of them are frenemies. Now Dickens revels under the "dears" that Fagin wants Sikes dead. He has been unwilling to do the deed himself, perhaps fearing the gallows, but sees an opening to force Nancy to do the act.


Werner | 266 comments Bionic Jean wrote: "However, the way Sikes said this made my blood run cold. Even though bloodletting was a common enough medical procedure, it seems like a bad joke he shares with Fagin; yet another way for Sikes to dominate and threaten Nancy."

Yes, Sikes isn't talking about an actual medical procedure. He's "humorously" talking about hitting her until she bleeds. :-(

The popularity of bleeding in ancient, medieval and early modern medicine was due to the prevalence of the "four humors" theory of disease. According to this view, disease was caused by an excess or deficiency in one of the four main "humors" in the body (blood, phlegm, and black and yellow bile), and curable in the first case by draining off the excess. This view was finally discredited in the 1850s, when the germ theory of disease was proven to the satisfaction of all of the medical community to be correct. For more information, see: .


Connie  G (connie_g) | 997 comments I'm very nervous about Nancy. Sikes has threatened to set the dog on her to tear out her throat. Then he threatened to bleed her, but she could bleed to death if he was angry enough. He has a temper that he can't control.

Nancy does have a dependent sort of love for Sikes. She probably also knows that he would hunt her down if he suspected she was leaving him. It must be a terrible feeling for her knowing that she will be dealing with this brutality for the rest of her life.


Bridget | 996 comments This chapter left me feeling so sad for Nancy. She is resolved but agonizing over her decision though every mental struggle terminated in this conclusion, they forced themselves upon her again and agin". That description felt very real to me. I can relate to what Nancy is going through - even though I've not lived the hard life she's had. Dickens is so good at giving his readers connections like that to his characters.


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Sara (phantomswife) | 1477 comments First off, the illustration is marvelous. If ever Fagin looked like the devil himself, this illustration catches that, with the pitchfork to finish it off.

This chapter really illustrates how little actual regard Sikes has for Nancy and how much danger she is in for just being in the sphere of these criminal men. Sikes is brutal, Fagin is crafty--both are dangerous.


message 12: by Lori (last edited Jul 13, 2023 11:54AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Lori  Keeton | 1054 comments I find it interesting that Nancy tried to get Fagin to tell Sikes to let her go. She could do nothing more to convince Sikes and she was hoping that Fagin had some hold over Sikes to force his hand. But now knowing that Fagin wants Sikes dead but won’t do it himself, it seems Fagin is not really wielding more power over Sikes. Eliminating Sikes is Fagin’s best solution. But using Nancy to do it, is so very low.

I am also worried about Nancy and can’t foresee what Dickens has in mind for these last chapters.

Edited: Sara we were cross-posting. I was totally thinking the exact thing about the illustration and left that out of my comment. Such a devil and that pitchfork!!


message 13: by Karin (last edited Jul 13, 2023 12:27PM) (new) - rated it 3 stars

Karin Werner wrote: "Bionic Jean wrote: "However, the way Sikes said this made my blood run cold. Even though bloodletting was a common enough medical procedure, it seems like a bad joke he shares with Fagin; yet anoth..."

This is partly correct re: bloodletting :)

Bloodletting was such a gruesome bit and when I read this chapter last night I wondered if Dickens was one of those who questioned the practise so was also implying that it also led to deaths by doctors, but of course it's possible I overthought it. It was already hihgly controversial, and although by mid-century it had been convincingly proven that bleeding did not help patients with diseases such as pneumonia but hard core conservative practitioners kept it up well past the C19th. Not only has it never stopped everywhere, today there are medical leeches for certain medical conditions such as venous congestion associated with soft tissue transplants etc. These leeches are raised cleanly in medical leech farms and are used only once.

Connie wrote: "I'm very nervous about Nancy. Sikes has threatened to set the dog on her to tear out her throat. Then he threatened to bleed her, but she could bleed to death if he was angry enough. He has a tempe..."

Nancy seems to be in between a rock and a hard place, that's for sure.


Shirley (stampartiste) | 466 comments Werner wrote: "The popularity of bleeding in ancient, medieval and early modern medicine was due to the prevalence of the "four humors" theory of disease. According to this view, disease was caused by an excess or deficiency in one of the four main "humors" in the body (blood, phlegm, and black and yellow bile), and curable in the first case by draining off the excess...."

I did not know this! I never could understand how anyone could think that removing life-giving blood could cure someone. So, I suppose in their minds, they were removing one of the other three components. Thank you for finally solving that mystery for me, Werner.


Shirley (stampartiste) | 466 comments I just feel so sorry for Nancy. Throughout, she has been one of my favorite characters. Yes, she has done things that her miserable circumstances required of her for survival, but she has remained strong, and as honest and good as she can be. I cannot even imagine how she must have felt going to see Rose Maylie in her beautiful mansion, surrounded by all the luxuries, knowing the life she was choosing to return to. It broke my heart.

How does someone of Nancy's background escape the life she has been doomed to? There is no Australia for her as there was for the Artful Dodger. In Victorian England, she could never expect any better life. I pray that Dickens finds a way out for her! She's only 17!

I, too, think Kyd's illustration embodies the evil of Fagin, but it also embodies the stereotypical view of Jews in those days. So, although it is a wonderful illustration, I'm ambivalent about it.

And lastly, I had no idea Fagin hated Sikes so much. I can't remember a reason why he would feel this way about him. All along, they appeared to have had a co-dependent relationship. Could that be the source of Fagin's hatred? And what a coward, that Fagin would use Nancy to kill him so he could keep his hands clean. Both Fagin and Sikes are despicable creatures.


Kathleen | 228 comments I would like a drawing of Fagin and Nancy at the bottom of the steps when Fagin tries to play nice with her. It would be a thin Nancy as we are told that “she grew pale and thin.� For me, the drawings have shown a Nancy that is much older and heavier than the text indicates.

Dickens is not the first writer to describe domestic abuse of a woman, but it feels so open here. No secrets. No guessing of what goes on behind closed doors.

(I’ve finally caught up again. My four trips across the “pond� kept me very busy so I’ve usually been a step or two behind the group. I’ve loved all the great intros by Jean and everyones comments. Thank you. I definitely see much more in this book than my previous read, eons ago.)


message 17: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Jul 14, 2023 02:53AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8312 comments Mod
Kathleen wrote: "I would like a drawing of Fagin and Nancy at the bottom of the steps when Fagin tries to play nice with her. It would be a thin Nancy as we are told that “she grew pale and thin ..."

There is just one illustration of Nancy that fits the way I think of her. It is one of just 3 by Charles Pears for Oliver Twist and accompanies the say after tomorrow's chapter, so keep an eye out for it Kathleen! Good to see you back! 😊


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Sara (phantomswife) | 1477 comments Shirley (stampartiste) wrote: "And lastly, I had no idea Fagin hated Sikes so much. I can't remember a reason why he would feel this way about him. All along, they appeared to have had a co-dependent relationship."

Sikes is a danger to Fagin, because he has no control over him. Sikes is a loose cannon, with a will of his own. Fagin has no qualms regarding using others, but his style is to manipulate, not intimidate, and he is constantly having to try to tamp Sikes down. I think he is genuinely afraid of him.


Claudia | 748 comments I agree with you Shirley. I very much dislike Kyd's illustration for the same reason as you mentioned. The preceding illustrations of Fagin with Noah Claypole were as caricatural. When I first saw such caricatures from the beginning of the 20th century (mostly from Germany and Austria) in Israeli museums I could not stop crying.

Otherwise I found this chapter very well done but particularly oppressing. We feel Nancy's anxiety, her utmost fear of Sikes who is a (bloodthirsty) brute indeed. Dickens described very skillfully the underlying extreme violence Nancy is submitted to.
Fagin's scheme is very perverse and utterly manipulative, but I think that Nancy is instinctively feeling what he is about.


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Sue | 1098 comments Sara, I agree that Fagin doesn’t feel he can control Sikes, especially after the botched robbery where he left Oliver behind. And Sikes is always a potential threat to everyone around him because he doesn’t mind using physical violence. Actually he could endanger everyone in the group if he gets angry at the wrong time.

Fagin is all about his own survival, and success if possible. Sikes is a drain on his crew. Nancy is a convenient tool if she will do what he wants. And he will have lost little if he loses her too.

Aside—I noticed Oliver Reed in the photo at the top of the page. I imagine he was Bill Sikes. I did like him back in the day but he played evil so well.


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Sara (phantomswife) | 1477 comments Must confess that the photo at the top of the page is how I think of these characters when I am reading. I've seen that version more than once and it is the visual my brain carries.

You describe the situation with Sikes perfectly, Sue.


message 22: by Lee (new) - rated it 5 stars

Lee (leex1f98a) | 501 comments Does anyone else feel that these characters: Fagan, Sikes, and Nancy are uncannily realistic? The depravity Charles Dickens has portrayed here is ghastly! I can visualize Dickens on his midnight walks through the poorest parts of town, and he probably witnessed prostitutes being beaten or vicious-looking men on the prowl.

Fagan's hate:
He cast back a dark look and a threatening motion of the hand, towards the spot where he had left the bolder villain, and went on his way, busying his bony hands in the folds of his tattered garment, which he wrenched tightly in his grasp as though there were a hated enemy crushed with every motion of his fingers.

Then for Nancy:
"Her eyes were swollen and red; she rocked herself to and fro, tossed her head, and after a little time burst out laughing." I have witnessed a friend in deepest grief after the death of her child, and this description indeed is a mirror into the depths of a woman's anguish.


message 23: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Jul 14, 2023 02:53AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8312 comments Mod
Great comments everyone! Today's chapter is quite short - almost an interlude - but heightening our sense of foreboding.


message 24: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Jul 14, 2023 04:09AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8312 comments Mod
Chapter 45:

The next morning Fagin waits a long time for his new associate to rise for breakfast, and is impatient for the greedy “Morris Bolter� (Noah Claypole) to finish. “Bolter� insists on satisfying his hunger before any other business is attended to, and Fagin flatters him on the previous day’s takings on the kinchin lay. He then tells him he has another easy job for him; to “dodge� (follow) a woman. Noah is confident that he can do this, saying ““I was a regular cunning sneak when I was at school.�



Michael Dear as Noah Claypole from 1948 film directed by David Lean

Fagin says he wants to know where the woman goes, whom she meets and if possible, for him to find out what she says. For this he will pay Bolter £1:

“and that’s what I never gave yet, for any job of work where there wasn’t valuable consideration to be gained.�

Bolter want to know who she is, and when Fagin says “One of us�, is alarmed. But Fagin dissembles and says he wants to know who her new friends are. Eager to please Fagin, and equally enamoured by his own supposedly brilliant criminal mind in anticipating them to be “r𳦳ٲ� people, Noah readily agrees.

Six days pass before the opportunity arises, but on the next Sunday night, Fagin comes back excited, as he has seen her, and says: “she has been alone all day, and the man she is afraid of will not be back much before daybreak.�

It is past 11 o’clock at night, when Fagin takes Bolter, once more dressed as a waggoner, to “The Three Cripples� Inn. Bolter recognises it as the same inn where he had slept, on the night they had arrived in London. With Barney’s help, they spy on Nancy through the glass. Fagin points her out. When Nancy leaves the inn, Bolter is close behind and follows her into the London night.


message 25: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Jul 14, 2023 04:12AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8312 comments Mod
This a very short chapter, but we can sense the urgency and feel the pace hotting up � but to what climax?

£1 in 1838 is worth £100 today. So Fagin is paying amply to find out this information from Noah Claypole, and he has lost no time finding a replacement since he no longer has the Artful Dodger on hand to rely on.

We see the craftiness of Fagin. In yesterday’s chapter he was keen to encourage Nancy to murder Sikes, and now Fagin instructs “Bolter� to follow Nancy and to find out where she goes and whom she meets. He never takes risks himself, but is always cautious, staying in the shadows as others follow his evil will and do his bidding. He also pretends to Noah that it is not particularly important, but merely: “work where there [is]n’t valuable consideration to be gained�.

But what do you think?


message 26: by Sara (new) - rated it 5 stars

Sara (phantomswife) | 1477 comments Of course, it heightens my concern for Nancy, because Fagin is now going to be aware of what she is doing. Claypole probably won't know what he has seen, but when it is related to Fagin, Fagin will! I wonder how Fagin will react when it turns out Nancy's secret isn't a new beau.


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Sue K H (sky_bluez) | 44 comments The tension is building quickly about what will happen to poor Nancy.

Sara- I wonder what Fagin will do, also. As you mentioned before, he doesn't do any dirty work so he will likely have Sikes or Bolter do something to her.

Nancy must know that Fagin is pure evil, though I must say that for a second it actually seemed like he cared for her and wanted to stop Sikes abuse of her in the last chapter. Of course he quickly disappointed, but will Nancy believe that he will help her?

It's interesting that at this point we have some comfort about Oliver's situation, with his friends knowing his circumstances and true nature, but now we are left to worry as much about Nancy as we did about Oliver.


Bridget | 996 comments Sending Noah to spy on Nancy is also troubling because Noah knows Oliver as well. Noah could be a method to bringing these story threads together.

The last time Noah and Oliver were together didn’t Oliver beat him up? Am I remembering that correctly? I’m guessing Noah would be happy to make trouble for Oliver.


message 29: by Kathleen (last edited Jul 14, 2023 07:30AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Kathleen | 474 comments Thanks for reminding us of that, Bridget. This is bad news for Oliver, as well as Nancy. I had a harder time than usual stopping at the end of this chapter!

So that one pound/worth 100 pounds today seems like an awful lot! Can Fagin trust Noah not to blab to the others that he is secretly sitting on a good sum of cash? I loved the line about Noah wishing Fagin had told Charlotte to make buttered toast before sending her off. What a spoiled brat!

I want to agree with something Lee said above, about Dickens' "uncannily realistic" character descriptions. It's easy to take this for granted because we're used to it with Dickens, but it is amazing how perfectly he draws these people and tells us so much through the detail he gives to their actions.


Claudia | 748 comments Yes Bridget!

This is a sudden turning up of a character we have not seen for a very long time, literally in the whole novel - Noah was motivational in Oliver fleeing from there. This is a very good device for bringing threads together.

When we read a novel by Dickens, we should indeed never forget anyone - even the most remotedly insignificant characters.

I saw this while reading Little Dorrit. Rigaud is not showing up for hundreds of pages, nor is Miss Wade, but still... This is the case in Dombey and Son as well and in A Tale of Two Cities even if it is a shorter novel, compared to others.


Karin Bridget wrote: "Sending Noah to spy on Nancy is also troubling because Noah knows Oliver as well. Noah could be a method to bringing these story threads together.

The last time Noah and Oliver were together didn..."


Yes, I'd thought of that as well. I'm nervous for both Oliver and Nancy at this point!


Petra | 2122 comments I've caught up with everyone. What a story! It's a tension filled one, for sure. I'm worried about both Nancy and Oliver.

These last two chapters have brought out even more than before the evilness of both Sikes and Fagin. Both of them have shown a darker, meaner side than ever.

Noah is a true piece of work. I wonder what Fagin sees in him, in the sense that he's loose-lipped, can't be trusted and won't help in any dangerous heists or jobs.

I also worry about Charlotte. Fagin sent her off with the women. She's being set up, perhaps, for a career as a prostitute. Will she see that coming and be able to get out before it's too late?

I'm looking forward to the next few chapters. It's going to be hard to read one chapter a day after the last couple of days of catching up. Reading so many chapters at once really speeds up the action. It's dramatic.


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Sue | 1098 comments We’re everyone coming as a group to the bridge? In that case, Oliver will be seen. Noah will want to hurt him which may interfere with Fagin’s plans if Noah can’t be controlled. But Nancy looks to be at great risk and I can only imagine Fagin giving her over to Sikes to deal with. He’ll be rid of Nancy and, if anyone sees what happens, he’ll be rid of Sikes.

I feel terrible for Nancy who has been struggling to do the right thing.


message 34: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8312 comments Mod
Sue wrote: "I feel terrible for Nancy who has been struggling to do the right thing ..."

Oh yes, it is so hard isn't it, and Charles Dickens is portraying this so realisitically that we can almost read her mind! Your question about London bridge is answered today, by the way, as the action carries straight on.


message 35: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8312 comments Mod
Petra - I'm delighted you have caught up! Indeed it is tempting to peek ahead ... but I recommend staying with us if you can! A lot happens in the new few chapters, and they are quite long. Plus Charles Dickens's writing is amazing - well worth savouring.

I'm hoping those who are "catching up" because of trips away, visitors etc., will also be able to do so ... but obviously all our circumstances are different. The main thing is to enjoy the read, and to be able to share our thoughts 😊

Great insights all, and also highlighting various possiblities at this portentous point! Take a deep breath for today's chapter ...


message 36: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Jul 15, 2023 04:29AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8312 comments Mod
Chapter 46:

The chapter follows straight on.

“A mist hung over the river, deepening the red glare of the fires that burnt upon the small craft moored off the different wharfs, and rendering darker and more indistinct the murky buildings on the banks.�



"When she was about the same distance in advance as she had been before, he slipped quietly down."James Mahoney 1871

It is 11:45 p.m., and there are two figures on London Bridge. The man has slunk after the woman, always concealed in the: “deepest shadows he could find� but now they both wait restlessly, in silence, on the bridge.



"Nancy" - Charles Pears 1912

At length St. Paul’s cathedral strikes midnight, and a young lady and a grey haired gentleman get out of a hackney-carriage and appear on the bridge. The girl immediately makes her way to them, and urges them to follow her down the stones steps to the shore of the river where they will be unobserved. However the man follows stealthily, and manages to remain hidden behind a narrow stone column attached to the wall. From here, he listens, not having expected anything like this to happen.



"The meeting at London Bridge" - George Cruikshank November 1838

The gentleman is puzzled as to why they need to do this, but Nancy, for it is she, says:

“I have such a fear and dread upon me to-night that I can hardly stand � Horrible thoughts of death, and shrouds with blood upon them, and a fear that has made me burn as if I was on fire, have been upon me all day. I was reading a book to-night � I’ll swear I saw ‘coffin� written in every page of the book in large black letters,—aye, and they carried one close to me, in the streets to-night.�

The man tries to reassure her that it is all her imagination, and the young woman with him urges him to be kind, and Nancy becomes calmer. When asked, she tells them that she could not be there the previous week, and that the only way she could leave without the man keeping her there by force was to give him laudanum. By this time the gentleman says he has decided he can trust her, and promises that Fagin and his gang will not come to harm as long as he can talk to Monks, who will never know how they found him. But if not, then she must tell him about Fagin. Nancy is horrified at the thought:

“Devil that he is, and worse than devil as he has been to me, I will never do that �

bad life as he has led, I have led a bad life too; there are many of us who have kept the same courses together, and I’ll not turn upon them, who might—any of them—have turned upon me, but didn’t, bad as they are.�


In that case, the gentleman says, they must get Monks into his custody, and Fagin will go free unless Nancy gives her consent for him to be captured.

“I have been a liar, and among liars from a little child,� said the girl after another interval of silence, “but I will take your words.�

Nancy tells them that Monks frequents “The Three Cripples� and also when they will be likely to find him there. She describes Monks having deep-sunk eyes, and a face which is:

“dark, like his hair and eyes and, although he can’t be more than six or eight and twenty, withered and haggard. His lips are often discoloured and disfigured with the marks of teeth; for he has desperate fits, and sometimes even bites his hands and covers them with wounds.�



"The Meeting under London Bridge" - Harry Furniss 1910

The gentleman starts, as if he recognises this description, but asks her to carry on. Nancy continues:

“upon his throat: so high that you can see a part of it below his neckerchief…�

and the gentleman finishes it for her

“a broad red mark, like a burn or scald.�

Before they part company, the gentleman and young lady offer to help Nancy in any way they can, even to being whisked away to a safe place abroad, to live for the rest of her life. They can do this, they assure her. But Nancy turns down the offer of such sanctuary, because much as she loathe and hates her life, she feels she must have gone too far to turn back.

Nancy looks into the dark waters of the Thames, and think of other as desperate as she, who throw themsenselvs in to end their life. She says:

“It may be years hence, or it may be only months, but I shall come to that at last.�

The young lady is very upset and urges her to take some money, but Nancy will only accept a keepsake. The others then leave, as the gentleman fears that Nancy might not safe if they pursue this, and when she is alone, Nancy collapses in tears. At this point we learn their names: Mr. Brownlow and Rose Maylie.

Noah Claypole, astonished, creeps out from his hiding place, and dashes at fast as he can back to Fagin.

This is the end of installment 20.


message 37: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Jul 15, 2023 08:37AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8312 comments Mod
“from the Middlesex to the Surrey shore�

is an old way to describe crossing the river Thames from the North to the South side. London Bridge connects an area which use to be in Middlesex to the suburbs in Surrey. Now it is in neither adjoining county, but is part of greater London.

Old Saint Saviour’s church is the huge and beautiful Southwark Cathedral at London Bridge: on the South Bank of the river Thames:

“The Musselman and the Pharisee�

“Mosalman� is Fārsī (Persian): مسلمان, alternatively "Muslim". So Mr. Brownlow is making the distinction between an upright Muslim and a hypocritically self-righteous Christian, as portrayed in the New Testament.

Here’s a link to the “woes of the Pharisees� in the New Testament:

.


message 38: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Jul 15, 2023 08:41AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8312 comments Mod
“London Bridge�

Throughout history there have been many bridges across the Thames, and several which have been called “London Bridge� (the lastest was built in 2017). Charles Dickens was familiar with those which had been already been constructed in his lifetime, and we have read about the Iron Bridge as Little Dorrit’s favourite. It’s not that one, and even though we are in Southwark, the bridge Charles Dickens means is not Southwark Bridge either!

The “Old London Bridge� was medieval and demolished in 1832. A new “London Bridge� was built in 1831, and this is the one Charles Dickens describes in Oliver Twist. Our American members can perhaps see it for yourself, as that too was demolished, but carefully this time as it was sent to Lake Havasu City in Arizona, to be reconstructed brick by brick. It had been bought by a wealthy American � there is a myth amongst the English that he thought he was getting the much fancier Tower Bridge, but this is a gross calumny!

What is also interesting, is that “Nancy’s steps� still exist on the South Bank of the Thames, and you can walk down them.

***WARNING!***There is a lot about both of these on the internet but I urge you NOT to look just yet, as each site I have found has bad spoilers!


message 39: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Jul 15, 2023 08:43AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8312 comments Mod
“Aܳ�

Rose Maylie and Mr. Brownlow repeat their desire to help Nancy escape to live in “a quiet asylum�. Prostitution was an acknowledged problem in the cities of that time. In the mid-1800s London may have been home to as many as 80,000 prostitutes. Concerned Victorian philanthropists set up asylums to help these “fallen women� and as we know, in 1846 Charles Dickens was to found one along with his friend the philanthropist Angela Burdett-Coutts. We spoke of it earlier; it was called “Urania Cottage�. He insisted that the women were taught useful skills and treated compassionately. Perhaps Charles Dickens saw a little of himself when he created Mr. Brownlow, rescuing young boys and young women, and providing a better future for them.

Nancy will not accept the offer of asylum; it is difficult to know the real reason, though she tries to be honest. Is it simply "Better the devil you know�?

A small detail I liked, was the way Dickens hid the names of Mr. Brownlow and Rose Maylie until the end of the chapter. He was to incorporate this mystery element even better in later novels, but the kernel of it is is all here. Although we can easily guess who they are, here it serves to convey them as representatives of all benefactors. And did you notice how he controls how they (and thus we) view both Nancy’s vulnerability, and her moral dilemma, moving between “wdz� and “g�.


message 40: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Jul 15, 2023 08:44AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8312 comments Mod
Dreams and Visions?

The illustration by Charles Pears of Nancy is exactly how I imagine her! And he is the only illustrator who tried to capture her inner horrors, leaving us to decide whether she is haunted by her own imagination, or whether it is rooted in reality, a mesmeric episode, supernatural haunting, premonition, and so on.

The only other time any illustrator has attempted to represent this is the shadow on the wainscot which terrified Monks so much. (And no dramatisations ever try to represent any sort of supernatural or mesmeric element, simplifying the tale considerably and blurring the issues of where any character is at any one time.) On both occasions Monks and Nancy share their fear with the characters they are with, and Rose’s terror is palpable; she is in mortal terror of she knows not what:

“I have such a fear and dread upon me to-night that I can hardly stand � Horrible thoughts of death, and shrouds with blood upon them, and a fear that has made me burn as if I was on fire, have been upon me all day. I was reading a book to-night � I’ll swear I saw ‘coffin� written in every page of the book in large black letters,—aye, and they carried one close to me, in the streets to-night.�

And when Mr. Brownlow tries to reassure her that coffins pass them all the time, she says:

“Real ones,� rejoined the girl. “This was not.�

Wow! Didn't it send a shiver down your spine?


message 41: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Jul 15, 2023 06:28AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

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Nevertheless the dramatic irony is almost painful for us to read: to see the honour that Nancy holds for Fagin, regardless of her logic or her reasoning. For us to know that Fagin has turned on Nancy, and that as she speaks Noah Claypole (Bolter) is hearing every word, makes us fear for what might happen.

The writing in this chapter is superb; the gothic feeling really hit me. It is full of foreboding, perhaps even presience in sentences such as:

“St. Paul’s tolled for the death of another day.�

The death of a day, but also perhaps the death of one or more of the characters? How long can these thieves and inhabitants of the underworld continue their ways? The net seems to be tightening.


message 42: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Jul 18, 2023 02:54PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

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And a little more �

Publication Troubles


The original readers had to wait a whole month to find out what happened - if they were still reading this in “Bentley’s Miscellany�. However, by now, December 1838, they could buy the whole text in 3 volumes! It had been published on 9th November 1838 as Oliver Twist; or, The Parish Boy’s Progress by “Bdz�. It was then reissued just a few days later, with a new title page naming Charles Dickens as the author.

On 17th December, at the time of the installment we have just read, a so-called “second edition� was printed, and dated 1839, although in fact this was a reprinting with the words “Second Edition� added to the title page.

It was reissued by as a “new edition� in October 1839, and again, with the authorship reverting to “Bdz� in March 1840.

Each of these editions had minor differences to the text, and variations in chapter lengths. Only some of the chapters still exist in 3 different collections. The acrimonious dispute continued between Charles Dickens and Richard Bentley, but on 2nd July 1840, Chapman and Hall took over the copyright, plates and unsold stock of Oliver Twist on Charles Dickens� behalf, for £2500. They reissued a “third edition� with a new title page and preface written in March 1841 and dated April 1841.

Charles Dickens continued to extensively revise the novel for the next edition of Oliver Twist, published in 10 monthly parts during January and October 1846, by Bradbury and Evans. Whenever you see an original cover with the surround of cameo pictures, this is the one it is taken from. And because everyone was assumed to know the story by then, the illustrations are spoilerish.

After this the novel continued to be republished, but only with minor edits and a new preface and a new frontispiece by George Cruikshank in 1850, 1858 and 1865. In his final edition of 1867, Charles Dickens replaced nearly all the remaining references to “the Jew� with “Fagin� or “he�.


message 43: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Jul 15, 2023 06:38AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

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Installment 21 will begin on Tuesday with chapter 47.

I'm looking forward to hearing all your thoughts, and perhaps the return of some readers when you've caught up 😊


message 44: by Michael (last edited Jul 15, 2023 07:25AM) (new) - added it

Michael (michaelk19thcfan) | 145 comments What a suspenseful atmosphere Dickens creates. You see the elements he incorporates so many times in all sorts of media, from the foggy and misty atmosphere, foreboding buildings, deep sound of clock bells marking the time, and surveillance. On top is Nancy adding a supernatural element.

Nancy is so eloquent. Look at this quote from her:

“Your haughty religious people would have held their heads up to see me as I am to-night, and preached of flames and vengeance,� cried the girl. “Oh, dear lady, why ar’n’t those who claim to be God’s own folks as gentle and as kind to us poor wretches as you, who, having youth, and beauty, and all that they have lost, might be a little proud instead of so much humbler?�

If I understand what Nancy is saying, my reading comprehension is being challenged, the use of the stick to try to improve the lower classes backfires as the recipients refuse help or even accept what might be useful advice. Dickens goes back to this theme in "Bleak House". I am not exactly sure who/whom Nancy is referring to in "might be a little proud instead of so much humbler".

In the quote Ms. Bionic refers to, from Mr. Brownlow states:

A Turk turns his face, after washing it well, to the East, when he says his prayers;

Technically Mr. Brownlow is incorrect as a Muslim will face Mecca to say his prayers. The cardinal direction of East, where the sun rises, is associated with new beginnings, and rebirth. Perhaps that is what Dickens was trying to convey especially contrasted with what follows, turn with no less regularity, to the darkest side of Heaven. A Muslim living in England would face southeast to pray towards Mecca.


Claudia | 748 comments This chapter, one of the best ones, was very dark, everything concurred to make it even darker. The atmosphere, the night, the stone steps down the bridge. Unnamed figures even if we guess who they are. Noah spying for 1£. (Even if it was a sum, it still looks like Judah's money ( A lingering sense of foreboding. The bell tolls. Nancy's vision of coffins.

Yet Rose embodies light through her benevolent and loving attitude. Even Noah is soothed by Rose's sweet voice:

"There was something so uncommon in her (Nancy's) manner, that the flesh of the concealed listener crept as he heard the girl utter these words, and the blood chilled within him. He had never experienced a greater relief than in hearing the sweet voice of the young lady as she begged her to be calm, and not allow herself to become the prey of such fearful fancies."

At the end of their meeting, we read, from Nancy's perspective:

"The two figures of the young lady and her companion soon afterwards appeared upon the bridge. They stopped at the summit of the stairs.

But the perspective is shifting as quickly:

“Hark!� cried the young lady, listening. “Did she call! I thought I heard her voice.�

Did Nancy call?


Kathleen | 474 comments Bionic Jean wrote:

The illustration by Charles Pears of Nancy is exactly how I imagine her! "


Yes, yes, yes! Exactly what I thought the minute I saw this. Thank you so much for sharing this--the others just don't fit.

So much great information, Jean. I appreciate the explanation of "from the Middlesex to the Surrey shore," which I didn't understand. And Nancy's steps! Another thing going on my London visit list!

This was such an atmospheric chapter. I dread Nancy's fate. Doesn't it seem we are observing Dickens honing his writing skills as we read? The prose just gets better and better.


message 47: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Jul 15, 2023 09:44AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8312 comments Mod
Kathleen - "The prose just gets better and better" Oh YES! 😊

"So much great information, Jean." Thanks - I'm so pleased you're enjoying it!


message 48: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Jul 15, 2023 09:22AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8312 comments Mod
Michael - "The recipients refuse help or even accept what might be useful advice." Yes, this was typical of the working classes, to refuse "charity" and have pride in what they could earn themselves, sometimes to extremes.

My family felt this very stongly indeed, and my grandmother (born in 1880) had a fear or the workhouse. The best example of this in Charles Dickens's novels are in his later works e.g. the best one is in his final completed novel Our Mutual Friend in 1865. A minor character Mrs Betty Higden has her own story arc. She is a child-minder, who takes in poor children and cares for them. She is old and poor, but when things start to go wrong for her, (view spoiler).

"I am not exactly sure who/whom Nancy is referring to in "might be a little proud instead of so much humbler"."

She means Rose Maylie, and is saying that because Rose is such a naturally humble but kind and generous person, she deserves to be a little prouder than she is, in the sense of "You should be proud of yourself!"


message 49: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (new) - rated it 4 stars

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Claudia - "Did Nancy call?" Not to attract attention, but Rose Maylie is so sensitive that she hears "a call" in the distance, which is Nancy's unbearable sobbing.


Claudia | 748 comments Bridges (and more widely the Thames, its banks, steps down a bridge) are a recurring motif and symbol in Dickens's novels and Victorian literature. London is a character in this novel as it is in Dombey and Son, and in Little Dorrit.

Here protagonists are purposely meeting on the London bridge, while Amy Dorrit enjoys walking on the Iron Bridge and is at one point casually meeting Arthur Clennam on that bridge, but she is quite early in the novel walking with him there.

In Oliver Twist and Little Dorrit we see how Nancy and Amy are imprisoned in a toxic relationship, Nancy is Sikes's prisoner, we saw how two chapters earlier, whereas Amy is controlled by a overwhelming relationship with her father and can only occasionally escape from his grips of emotional pressure.

Daniel Deronda (George Eliot-1876) enjoys rowing his boat on the Thames and discovers Mirah on the river bank, about to drown herself. The Blackfriars Bridge is a highly symbolic meeting point between Daniel and Mordechai - the latter is ill, but he still walks there to "listen to the messengers of heaven and earth" (roughly quoted) as he is a student of the Kabbalah (not in an occult sense, but the Kabbalah as a sum of volumes and writings by the sages, completing his Torah and Talmud studies).


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