Å·±¦ÓéÀÖ

Emily, I understand how you feel. Geoffroy de Villehardouin was one of those times for me. For me, as I read along, I come across more than a few "abstruse anecdotes" (smile). Some folks like the thematic approach because she covers a lot of ground and the reader has to fill in the blanks. There are not a lot of notes to go on; you are correct. But I think at the end we will have covered and been exposed to a lot and will pick up some of the details as we go along. I think the important points thus far are the Fourth Crusades sacking of Constantinople and the Ottoman Turks sacking it once and for all, Constantine, and Theodosius I and possibly Empress Zoe. We will fill in the blanks as we go along.

Here is Marina Warner:



by Marina Warner

Warner explores "the tradition of personifying liberty, justice, wisdom, charity, and other ideals and desiderata in the female form, and examines the tension between women's historic and symbolic roles.

Synopsis from a reviewer (not me - smile)

Drawing on the evidence of public art, especially sculpture, and painting, poetry, and classical mythology, she ranges over the allegorical presence of the woman in the Western tradition with a sharply observant eye and a piquant and engaging style.

Here is some more Emily about Warner and her views which really are quite brilliant. Think of the fact that women are historically associated with sin, sex and Eve (maybe mother). It was Eve who led Adam astray (the poor man). Possibly these old myths and beliefs are what stands in the way of women getting rid of their burkahs in some parts of the Middle East.

Warner states pretty much the following about language, myths, and iconography:

Language, myths and iconography according to Warner, have all assisted the projection of abstract concepts onto the female body. Female allegorical figures reflect the peculiarities of gender in Greek, Latin and Romance languages. The languages, Warner points out, are structured so that the majority of abstract nouns are feminine, while agents are masculine, for example le juger to judge (the judge whether male or female) and la justice. When a feminine form is available for a female, usually it is derived from a masculine form. And in some cases the feminine form is not only derivative but diminutive as well. For example, the suffix - ette leads to an association of the feminine not with contingency but also with smallness. The tendency with abstractions to be female and agents males underscores the Aristotelian contrast between matter (feminine) and form (masculine).

More: (from Review of Warner's book)

Women in art and literature often stand for an abstraction like liberty, justice, or victory, while men usually appear as themselves. Warner sets out to explain why women have been used allegorically far more often than men, what abstractions the female body was used to express and how such expression was rendered. Warner notes that the allegorical function of the female body has imposed restrictions on the social and political status of women (women disfranchised, stood for liberty) and she occasionally flickers over the response of feminists to the imposition of values by art or to the opposition between values expressed in art and those adhered to in life. On these issues, however, Warner is suggestive, not comprehensive. Her book on Monuments and Maidens: The Allegory of the Female Form concentrates on the allegories themselves, not on the response to the allegories or on the social or political condition of women that the allegories belied.

Review:

Ann Fairfax Withington
Reviewed work(s):
Monuments and Maidens: The Allegory of the Female Form by Marina Warner
Winterthur Portfolio
Vol. 22, No. 1 (Spring, 1987), pp. 105-107
(review consists of 3 pages)
Published by: The University of Chicago Press on behalf of the Henry Francis du Pont Winterthur Museum, Inc.
Stable URL:

by Marina Warner

Remember how Byzantium began: (a very short synopsis)

Byzantium the ancient Greek city, established by colonising Greeks from Megara in 667 BC and named after king Byzantas, later, renamed as Constantinople, became the center of the Byzantine Empire, a Greek-speaking Roman Empire of late antiquity and the Middle Ages. Constantinople fell to the Ottoman Turks in 1453. The city became Istanbul in 1930, the capital of modern Turkey.

The above was a quote from an interview done by Herrin; the current capital is Ankara - just as an FYI.

Who was Alexios IV




Alexius IV (Alexius Angelus), d. 1204, Byzantine emperor (1203�4), son of Isaac II. When his father was deposed, Alexius fled to Italy and then went to Germany. Encouraged by his brother-in-law, Philip of Swabia, he obtained (1202) from the leaders of the Fourth Crusade (see Crusades) the promise of help in deposing his uncle, Alexius III. Made joint emperor with Isaac II after the Crusaders entered Constantinople, he was overthrown for his subservience to his allies and was strangled by order of Alexius V.

How do you think Rome felt about New Rome and why was a New Rome needed at all?

Herrin stated on page 16: "New Rome attracted inhabitants, making it by far the largest city in the world of Late Antiquity, while Old Rome declined."

It was said that the bubonic plague killed 10,000 inhabitants a day!!!

Laurence, please see my posts 51 through 53. You must cite Warner's book which is in Å·±¦ÓéÀÖ and you must always cite the author if not mentioning a book by them:

Here is the book which is in goodreads along with the author and which I cited in posts 51 through 53 with similar explanations (smile).


by Marina Warner

I have reposted your post because of the citation(s) being left out:

Laurence stated (minus the required citations):

Emily,

Marina Sarah Warner is a British novelist, short story writer, historian and mythographer. She is known for her many non-fiction books relating to feminism and myth. She is currently Professor in the Department of Literature, Film and Theatre Studies at the University of Essex. All this from Wikipedia.

I think Herrin means that the battlements and wealth are aspects of male power, which are here shown in female form.

In, Monuments & Maidens: The Allegory of the Female Form, (not listed in Å·±¦ÓéÀÖ) she examines an impressive scope of material art (Donatello, Vermeer, Judy Chicago), Greek mythology, the Bible, literature, linguistics and mass media and traces the different meanings which have been ascribed to the female form throughout the ages. There is a give-and-take of meaning between the female fantasy figures, Athena, Wisdom, Temperance, et al.and actual women. Warner suggests that some women (the armed maidens of Justice and Chastity, etc.) may take on male personas (the brandished weapons) to best shield themselves from the masculine code. Pandora, the first woman of classical myth, and Eve, the mother in the Judeo-Christian story, bear the burden of men's dreams: made and named by others, agents of calamity through the desire they inspire but do not experience themselves. Unlike men, women lose their individuality as they become universal symbols, and the only way to rid the female form of contaminated meanings is "to respect the individual inside the symbol" to look through the Statue of Liberty's eyes to see that she can represent freedom only if we were to forget the female condition. The difficulty with this sometimes brilliant study is that, like the history it examines, it never comes to rest with an unchanging definition.
(NB all of the above summarized from the Amazon review of MW's book quoted above)

I hope that clarifies this point!

The moderator's comment:

Emily makes a good point regarding who is the audience for this book. Is it the average person who knows nothing about Byzantium or is it a scholar who is studying Ancient History but wants to know more about this particular time period or is it simply another colleague or student who already possesses a great deal of background information (hence no necessity for a great many reader's notes).

I think you summed up nicely one of the reason(s) for this reference by Herrin when you said: the battlements and wealth are aspects of male power, which are here shown in female form.

Some very good additional information regarding the allegory of the female form. Thank you once again Laurence for the post.

Thank you, Bentley.

For me one of the fascinating aspects of Byzantium, mentioned (Pg xx of the Introduction in my edition) is the inspiration Greek/Byzantine scholars had in the beginnings if the Renaissance.

"...public lectures on Plato by the famous Greek scholar and philospoher George Gemistos Plethon inspired Cosimo de 'Medici's to establish his Platonic Academy."

Plato was almost unknown in the rest of Europe at that time. The interesting thing for me is that in the Byzantine Empire a tradition of learning had continued uninterrupted since antiquity.

Why is it that most schools teach the existence of the Dark Ages, when clearly they were not Dark in all of Europe when several hundred miles from Italy a city existed with learning and civilization. The concept of the Dark Ages is, to me, a notion that we must now discard, unless we also mention that actually we are referring to Western Europe only.

Yes Laurence it really did all start with the Greeks. And to think of their monetary problems now. But Byzantium really was an ancient Greek city colonized first by Greeks from Megara.

Any empire lasting over a thousand years is unheard of during these changing times. You do make a great point about the Dark Ages. It appears that darkness is in the eyes of the beholder - but not in Byzantium. Obviously Western Europe was not faring well at this time. And so much history uses that location as its barometer.

I've been unexpectedly busy this week before traveling home for the holiday, so I'm a little bit late in posting to the discussion. This is a fantastic group! It's nice to have others with similar interests reading the same book that we're able to talk about. :-)

First impression so far is that the early history seems to move a bit too fast for me. Then again, my strongest area of historical interest is in that early period so it only makes sense that I'd feel a bit let down by the pace.

I, too, have traveled to Istanbul. My wife and I were there in October. It was completely amazing, and it will be a long time before I can figure out whether I prefer Rome or Istanbul. To me, visiting a historical site (whether it's an Old West ghost town, a Civil War battlefield, or a more ancient site like the Roman Forum or even Stonehenge) adds immeasurable value to the study of history itself. There's something about breathing the air, touching the stone, and so on that adds something vital to written descriptions in books.

Andrew- welcome to the discussion. It is never too late to start and/or post to any discussion. And may you have a wonderful holiday when you do get home.

Thank you for your kind words.

I agree that the pace is brisk at the beginning and more than a couple of readers noticed this and agree with you. However, their sense was that there was so much introduced that they were not familiar with and to make matters more confusing for them was the added issue that they did not have any reader's notes or adequate references. I think the difference is that in your case you loved this early period and wanted more of it and you already have an excellent background in the subject matter.

How wonderful that you have been to Istanbul and recently. What about the city even today makes you say that and especially when comparing it to Rome (the old Rome and the new Rome being compared once again).

Your description of why travel is so important in order to really feel like you are living and breathing the historical impact of a place is so on target.

And welcome to the discussion. Tell us more about your impressions of Istanbul for starters.

The women issue in all its aspects from the age of Byzantium is a bit of an eye-opener for me. While men were the 'rulers', smart, clever women learned to use their wiles to advance in ways I thought only belonged to a scattered few here and there, even behind the scenes. I thought that during the so-called Dark Ages, it was a rare woman who did more than be a wife and produce as many children as possible, as it was not expected that all one's children would survive to adulthood. Now I see that more than an occasional woman had success beyond the 'home'.

Education and the seemingly easy opportunity to be educated is also unexpected. I had thought that, for example, until Columbus came along, most people still thought the world was flat, so only a very few would be scholars and they would have very few students. At least in Constantinople, that doesn't seem to be true.

Virginia, what an excellent post.

What a remarkable city and period in Constantinople. The men obviously were secure in their psyche to allow women to thrive and at the very least in the ruling classes, the women were encouraged to be educated and erudite.

Yes, Constantinople seems to be a very unique place and culture - one unlike described in the so called Dark Ages. There did not seem to be anything dark about Constantinople.

What happened to the next week's reading thread? It said it is closed after your 2 posts.

The weekly threads only open up on the Sunday before (if early) or the Monday of that week's reading. They are the non spoiler threads. The spoiler threads are always open. Once a non spoiler weekly thread has been kicked off, it is always open but only for discussions related to that week's assignment or the pages that came before. It has always been that way for weekly non spoiler threads.

You will be seeing me set up the threads in advance and then opening them up on a weekly basis as we move through the book.

Bentley wrote: "Remember how Byzantium began: (a very short synopsis)

Byzantium the ancient Greek city, established by colonising Greeks from Megara in 667 BC and named after king Byzantas, later, renamed as Cons..."

Capitol of modern Turkey since 1923 is Ankara.

Bentley wrote: "How do you think Rome felt about New Rome and why was a New Rome needed at all?

Herrin stated on page 16: "New Rome attracted inhabitants, making it by far the largest city in the world of Late An..."

I think New Rome was needed because of the poor communications between the sections of the Empire. For an account of what it is like to live in a city with the plague read Daniel Defoe This is London in the 1600's so the technology is only slightly different from what Constantinople had. This is available as a Guttenberg project download.

Yes, of course about Ankara: I did a copy and paste of an interview Herrin had given and posted it in the Bibliography; that cut and paste was posted here as evidence of how Byzantium came into being and by whom. It is interesting that the original Arabs wanted to capture Constantinople to make it the capital of Islam and now since 1923 decided that the capital should be Ankara. Interesting in other ways.

I have noted the fact in the Herrin interview with a moderator's note.

As far as the reason for the New Rome I suspect your reasoning and explanation are also correct. Thank you also for the add and information about the download option.

Those who survived the sacking of the city by the Fourth Crusade had their faith in both supernatural and human powers shaken. This is one of the disadvantages of identifying Empirial power with supernatural power.

Scott, I am not following - help me out more with your explanation. I can see that the folks of Constantinople would be upset that Christians and Crusaders attacked them and that there was so much intrigue going on with their leadership which put them all in peril and worse - so I guess that part is the segment where their faith in human nature was shaken but I guess I do not understand the rest.

In answer to the question of had the Fourth Crusades not weakened Constantinople would the Ottoman Turks have been successful. Most of the productive areas of Constantinople had been plundered and burned during the course of the Crusades. This lead to a reduction of food and supplies that were needed and expected by the citizens of Constantinople. Also, correct me if I an wrong, but the Arabian peninsula was progressively drying up during this period forcing the Ottoman Turks to move closer to "civilized" areas. I believe that with dwindling resources (food, etc.) Constantinople, from both war and climatic changes, was a prime target for take over.

Kathy F, since I am not too familiar with the climate issues during this time period, I will take your word for it. I haven't read anything that I recall thus far about climate issues being a driving force; but it could have certainly been a factor. And the Crusades created real havoc and destruction.

Very interesting points. Possibly other readers may want to comment if they have any supporting information.

Today in history: 1041 - Empress Zoe of Byzantium elevates her adoptive son to the throne of the Eastern Roman Empire as Michael V.

Got that in today's mail - 12/10 -

That is amazing isn't it Becky - odd coincidences sometimes. Empress Zoe we are thinking about you (smile).

Bentley wrote: "Scott, I am not following - help me out more with your explanation. I can see that the folks of Constantinople would be upset that Christians and Crusaders attacked them and that there was so much..."

With mosiacs of The Almighty showing their favor with Emperial officials, the people were sold the idea that the Almighty was on their side. Thus, only two explanations were possible for such a devastating destruction: 1. Supernatural powers had abandoned them; or 2. their gods were false, and there were remnants of pre-Christian religions still around. It is analogous to a story I read about many years ago: A small Mexican village prays to the statue of the Virgin for rain. When no rain comes, they threw the statue of the Virgin in the dried-out lake. Herrin does describe officials taking oaths in front of statues, as if the statues had some special connection to the supernatural.

Got it, thanks Scott for the explanation. Now I understand what you meant.

Bentley wrote: "Andrew- welcome to the discussion. It is never too late to start and/or post to any discussion. And may you have a wonderful holiday when you do get home.

Thank you for your kind words.

I agre..."

Just knowing that I was in New Rome was enough to bring into my mind comparisons to old Rome. Also, as my area of history is early Christianity (which gets wrapped up inextricably with Roman and European history) there's a constant comparison between the two anyway, so having now been both places I couldn't help but try to visually verify if I could any traces of the old comparisons while also comparing the "vibe" of the modern cities.

Istanbul was at least the more interesting of the two cities, particularly as it's such a complicated mix of European/Middle Eastern cultures. I remarked to my wife that it was difficult to tell whether I was in a European or Middle Eastern country ... it seemed like both, and neither at the same time. Also, spending the vast majority of my time in western Europe and growing up in the US, it was a very different experience to be in a Muslim culture. Being awoken at roughly 5 a.m. for the day's first call to prayer was surprising, but I quickly got used to it and even came to enjoy it. I was deeply impacted by the population of stray cats, and how deliberately and kindly they were cared for by the people rather than being treated as a nuisance. I was also interested to see that only a very small minority of people would actually heed each call to prayer and stop what they were doing, or head to a mosque. There were far more tourists populating the back of each mosque than worshipers praying.

Those are just some of my impressions. The main thing was being in a city filled to overflowing with a very long, complex, violent, beautiful, incredible history. Our hotel was located below the Hagia Sophia in the city's most ancient quarter; we took a cruise across the Bosphorus from Europe to Asia; visited some important sites related to church history and ancient/medieval history; and immersed ourselves as much as we could into the culture of the modern city.

Bentley wrote: "Who was Empress Zoe?

It is obvious that Judith Herrin wanted us to know about Empress Zoe right away because she placed her on the cover of her book and even before the introduction discussed her ..."

Bentley: Thanks for the information about Empress Zoe. I'll be mentioning it to my teenaged daughter Zoë, also a history buff (makes her father proud). I think this may be her most impressive namesake yet!

Jim, you are welcome. I am sure as we go through the book we may uncover even more details about her life. Glad you are enjoying the discussion.

I have to say that I feel like my lack of knowledge on this period of history is making this a difficult read. There are references that I have no clue what Herrin is talking about and I fear that I am missing some great insights that would make this a more exciting book. That being said, I am trying to catch up on my history and the links that Bentley is supplying are helping greatly. I just hope that I can keep up with the discussions and not fall behind.

Lisa, I think that the book is just warming up and you raise some points that Emily raised and they are quite valid. I think this will be a valuable and a very informative read but I have lessened the number of pages per week so that folks can still manage to keep up. The assignments are about 20 to 25 pages a week which is doable even though some of the beginning pages might make you feel like you have been dropped out of space into an alien world that you are unfamiliar with.

I advise everybody to check the glossary links and the ancillary links that I am providing here and there to try to get a handle on this period of history to get a feel for it. Remember we are really moving through the book thematically so focus on that versus the details and just slog through. You are going to get a great deal out of this book in the process by the end of the journey.

If you have 25 pages to read; just think that you have seven days and try to read five pages a day; maybe some days you might get through only 3 but at the end of the week you are where you want to be. The most important thing is not to get bogged down on the things that you do not know but focus on those things that you are able to pick up as you read and keep moving. You can always go back and read other books on the Byzantium Empire to fill in the blanks.

Remember you do not have to be an authority at the end. Just get out of this book or any other book just what you can without any angst.

I am glad that the links are helping you.

Bentley

Bentley wrote: "This Week's Assigned Reading:

Herrin indicates that the mosaic reflects some of the themes of the book including the following:

a) The remarkable literacy of Byzantine society
b) Its powerful sen..."
I've finished chapter 2 and am quite engrossed in this book. It is the first time I have attempted a historical novel as a group exercise like this and only the second time I have attempted to read pre-20th century history (my main area of history has always been war and genocide in the 20th century). I'll try as much as possible to back up my sweeping statements (as I noticed in my first comment that I was rather vague)!

I'm going to attempt to answer the questions!

1. I did generally get the idea that the Byzantine society was literate and when Herrin remarked that "the city provided opportunities for people from the provinces and farther afield who sought jobs and patrons" (pg 17), I found myself wondering whether there was much poverty in the city, whether there were beggars in the streets, or thieves and criminals. There must have been, surely, but Herrin does seem to paint a picture of remarkable well-being. Of course, this is previously suggested when Anastasios II "ordered every family that could not support itself in foodstuffs for three years to leave the city" (pg 15).

I was quite impressed by the sense of community that must have been involved for the patriarch to rally up the citizens to proceed around the city walls when they were being attacked by the Avars (pg 15). Incidentally, I had never heard of the Avar people but apparently they still exist as a people and reside in Dagestan, a Russian republic I didn't even know existed!

Like other commentators, I was impressed by the presence of women in religion and also got the sense that the Dark Ages did not quite extend to Byzantium.

2. I was fascinated by the story of Zoe as appeared here in the thread but have not read too much about her. In fact, I did not even notice the mosaic on the cover much (apart from admiring it and pondering my natural attraction to Byzantine art) until I realised how significant Zoe is.

3. I haven't visited Istanbul but when we visited south east Turkey, we decided to stray from the typical tourist route and accepted the chance to visit a rural village. We saw that the villagers live in poverty but are able to live off the land and by hand weaving carpets. This is quite a contrast to the sense of an urban and relatively wealthy population described in the book.

The men appeared to work the land and the women appeared to do all the weaving, handiwork and carpet making.

4. Despite the possibility that women faired better in Byzantium than the rest of the world in the Dark Ages, possibly gaining literacy, the fact remains that government, military and the church were still dominated by men. Now that we know the story of Zoe, (which was a bit of a spoiler really, as the first mention of her in the book is on page 51!) I guess we know that this will change in later chapters but I don't see too much about women's roles in this early stage.

Women seemed to be very much marginalised in south east Turkey. Apart from in the village, we did not see many women working in the hotels, resorts, cafes and attractions that we visited. We uderstood this to be due to Muslim restrictions on women working. Our guide told us an interesting story about women and property in the region. Women have only recently become eligible to own property (past 50 years or so) but they were traditionally left unprofitable land that you could not possibly use. Like land on the edge of the sea that could not be used for farming but which became perfect for seaside tourist resorts!! So it was that many of the resorts in the Bodrum / Gumbet area are owned by women. Hopefully they will be passed down the female line. Unfortunately, I have tried to verify this story on the internet but have not been able to so it may be an urban legend.

Scott found this article and brought it to my attention on the bibliography thread where of course it should be posted. However, because of the subject matter of week one's reading, it is also most appropriate for this thread. I think that those of you interested in the impact of the allegory of the female form and real life associations not just ones from the Byzantium era might listen up. And the article is by no other than Marina Warner - just published in the Guardian in the UK. Thank you so much Scott for this:

What St Paul's could learn from Mary, the patron of the Occupy protesters

Giles Fraser's resignation over Occupy London shows the church must engage with new forms of faith and belief

By Marina Warner
guardian.co.uk, Thursday 27 October 2011 14.30 ED

Giles Fraser, the canon chancellor of St Paul's who resigned yesterday morning, appears to be one of the few people within the Church of England who thinks deeply about how to apply Christian teachings to the real world � not just the protest taking place on its steps but the changing role of faith and belief in general.

I was due to meet Fraser on Tuesday. St Paul's has been holding a series of public debates about the Bible in the cathedral, and I had been asked to talk about Mary: "Teenage mother, virgin, prophet" was the provocative rubric. Jane Williams, theologian and wife to the Archbishop, would discuss the Mary of scripture, while I, a lapsed Catholic, would fill in what has happened to her cult more recently. The canon � who had spoken out in favour of the protest when the camp was first set up, and never one to shy away from strong debate � would be chairing.

As I began drafting my comments, the increasing presence of the Occupy the London Stock Exchange campers added unexpected urgency. The temple in the City had become a base to castigate the buyers and sellers over the way. There were also historical connections: Mary in modern times appears in visions to the poor, unlettered, downtrodden, to children, women, the overworked and underpaid. At La Salette in 1846, the young visionaries, when asked what the splendid Lady had told them, passed on orders that everyone should keep one day a week holy in her honour: labouring children were invoking a union rep on high to get them a day off.

More recently the Virgin Mary has undergone a change which also turns her into a symbolic patron of the Occupy movement. From being the figurehead of the long crusade against communism and the emblem of kings and fascist dictators from Europe to south America, she has evolved into a countercultural peace goddess, closer to voodoo than a traditional Madonna.

One of the most striking differences between her cult in the past and the present is that the baby has been sidelined. However much the doctrine commands the faithful to worship God through Mary and not Mary herself, almost every contemporary image I have looked at shows Mary on her own, usually standing on the moon, an apocalyptic figure of power, resplendent, blessings flowing from her hands.

The appearances of a such a figure are myriad � from the visions in Paris in 1830, which gave rise to the Miraculous Medal, to the current apparitions at the Coptic Chuch in Zeitoun, Cairo, where a radiant lady hovers over the domes in full view. Just as the Madonna of Mercy spread her cloak to shelter all who turned to her (and even covered up errant nuns' pregnancies), she's now seen as a guardian of sinners and prodigals.

A revival of religious practices is under way, not necessarily linked to belief; its advocates denounce churches for their strictures against them. Uses of symbols and rituals, relics, charms and talismans, are efflorescing: the relics of St Thérèse of Lisieux were recently taken on tour, and the reliquary attracted vast crowds. The procession even entered York Minster, where the dean welcomed the relics.

Last Friday, when the cathedral shut its doors, I assumed the event would be moved to one of the dozens of other churches or halls around. Or even held on the square. But no, with only just over 24 hours to go, I had an email, huffing about "the increased fire risk and decreased access". Yet aerial views show much more space than in any tube station, cinema or theatre at rush hour: I was in Leicester Square last weekend and it made St Paul's churchyard look like the Empty Quarter.

The anti-capitalist peace camp is a communal rite, a plea for sanctuary, a pilgrimage undertaken in conviction and hope, a form of prayer, even conjuration, using masks and performance. The campers are adapting old sacramental processes to secular and political purposes, without necessarily proclaiming allegiance to a creed. They are placing their call on a historic ground, in proximity to the church where free speech has been allowed for centuries.

The situation cries out for St Paul's clergy to seize the occasion, fling open the doors and hold more and more debate � not about the Bible or Mary, but about justice, poverty and responsibility. Everyone is watching St Paul's. It's no surprise that Fraser has quit, but it is shameful that he was put in this position. He's shown courage in his stand on civil liberties, economic inequality and sexual tolerance, and he was brought in to lead the cathedral's project to develop ethics for our time. He now finds himself muzzled.

Continued silence from those remaining inside St Paul's will speak of complete moral and intellectual failure; it will forfeit the Church of England a role in shaping the national conscience. Set candles and petals floating on the sea to the goddess: you're about as likely to get an answer.



The Virgin Mary has become a symbolic patron of the Occupy movement. Photograph: Elio Ciol/Corbis

Mandy wrote: "Bentley wrote: "This Week's Assigned Reading:

Herrin indicates that the mosaic reflects some of the themes of the book including the following:

a) The remarkable literacy of Byzantine society
b) ..."


Mandy what terrific notes. Let me start reading this gradually and commenting.

I will be commenting on message 82. I am going to have to look at what you are referring to before.

First I am glad that you are engrossed in the book - good start.

You stated:

I did generally get the idea that the Byzantine society was literate and when Herrin remarked that "the city provided opportunities for people from the provinces and farther afield who sought jobs and patrons" (pg 17), I found myself wondering whether there was much poverty in the city, whether there were beggars in the streets, or thieves and criminals. There must have been, surely, but Herrin does seem to paint a picture of remarkable well-being. Of course, this is previously suggested when Anastasios II "ordered every family that could not support itself in foodstuffs for three years to leave the city" (pg 15).

You have to wonder who of us would be able to say that we have on hand and/or will have enough food for three years. I guess if you were very poor that would exclude poor folks. What kind of foodstuffs did they have on hand?

Thank you for taking the time to research the Avar people who remarkable are still around and living in Russia. I was also amazed that Constantinople had also been attacked by the Russians at one time or another.

Yes, it is remarkable how this book makes us all rethink what was the Dark Ages and was it Western Europe specific.

It sounds like you had an interesting trip to Turkey. I am wondering if all of the vestiges of the Byzantium Empire are really lost in terms of culture and in terms of the family unit and roles. Religion plays an important role in such interpretations and Christianity and Islam are very different in terms of how these roles have evolved over time. It does not seem as if the Empire has lived on in terms of the people and how well off they seem to be. But not having visited Turkey and not knowing that much about the Byzantium Empire aside from this book makes me reluctant to make any assumptions or come to any conclusions as to the causes and the effects.

Yes, Herrin introduced Zoe early, on the cover and told us the story but then makes us wait for more. She did rain on our parade a bit (smile).

Remarkable how women are treated isn't it. Collectively if they all banded together I wonder what men would really do. Very interesting story about land and how women were allegedly given the bad deal which ended up being not so bad after all. Poetic justice.

Great notes, keep up the good work.

Andrew wrote: "Bentley wrote: "Andrew- welcome to the discussion. It is never too late to start and/or post to any discussion. And may you have a wonderful holiday when you do get home.

Thank you for your kind..."

Andrew what an interesting post - it is very like me trying to "feel" or "visualize" internally how things might or must have been. Sort of channeling the places (smile)

This passage that you wrote was quite interesting:

Istanbul was at least the more interesting of the two cities, particularly as it's such a complicated mix of European/Middle Eastern cultures. I remarked to my wife that it was difficult to tell whether I was in a European or Middle Eastern country ... it seemed like both, and neither at the same time.

I too like the calls to prayer - it is spiritually alive for me no matter that I am not Islamic. I have visited the Middle East and have always liked it too. And the story about the stray cats - how interesting - very kind to animals.

You must have loved being in the ancient quarter - what a dream trip.

Bentley wrote: "How do you think Rome felt about New Rome and why was a New Rome needed at all?

By the time Constantine founded Constantinople, Rome really wasn't much of a capital city any longer. The emperors had been using cities closer to the action (northern Italy and elsewhere) to hold court.

As Cameron states when discussing the changing role of the Roman Senate in The Later Roman Empire:

"The legacy of this dispersal of imperial authority can still be seen under Diocletian and the tetrarchy, when instead of holding court at Rome the Augusti spent their time travelling and residing at a series of different centres such as Serdica and Nicomedia, some of which, in particular Trier and Antioch, had already acquired semi-official status in the third century. Rome was never to become a main imperial residence again." pp. 7-8 (my emphasis)

Averil Cameron

An excellent addition and point Jen. Thank you for the add and the citation.

Hi all,

Quite the thread here. I have visited Turkey and Istanbul and Hagia Sofia on a quasi-business/pleasure trip. Loved Istanbul, highly recommend it (but stay right in the tourist district around the Golden Horn, as some hotels are located very far from the main sites).

As for the book itself, I found the first two chapters quite a drag. The writer, despite the enlivening first story of the workers inspiring her to write the book, seems so full of detail that she fails to choose a thread of narrative (which is important in popular history) and gives us a hodge-podge which, admittedly, sets the stage but doesn't do much to hold the attention or bring the reader deeper into the book (which does seem to get better/more focused as it progresses).

One thing that was notable and that the early chapters did a good job bringing to the forefront (though never mentioning specifically) was how the empire vacillated between strength/weakness while SIMULTANEOUSLY preserving an identity for a millenia and a half. This, to me, bespeaks the strength of that identity itself . . . what was it about the identity of Byzantium that held such allure and such attraction as to make successive layers of leadership continually refer to its elements for legitimization of there power and thereby extend/broaden that power? I think it was a combination of three things: 1. Co-optation of the dual Greek/Roman heritage (Herrin speaks about the Roman self-identification of the Byzantines, but less about their simultaneous Greek self-identification) 2. Christianity and its cultural and physical edifices and 3. Military power

Cheers,
Ben

Welcome Benjamin to the discussion.

We try to respect the book in these links and this is a book that the group members selected. I do hope you continue the journey beyond the first two chapters which I felt were written extremely well and were not a drag at all. Some folks had trouble because there was so much "assumed" as background knowledge of the Byzantium Empire which few of us have. But since this is a thematic approach I have advised that folks just slog through those things that they do not know and we will try to fill in the blanks. I think you do raise an interesting point that things do get more focused once Herrin sets the foundation with a great deal of background information which is sometimes overwhelming for us novices; but not for those who are familiar with the subject matter.

How fortunate that you visited Turkey and saw first hand the Hagia Sofia. And your advice as to where to stay is a good one. I will keep that in mind whenever I get an opportunity to visit.

I think you raise some great points Benjamin; but in all fairness to Herrin she did lay out what her themes would be and that this book would be a thematic approach and you do mention that she developed one of these points well in terms of how the empire had sustained itself for over a millennia and a half.

I do think you developed some interesting hypotheses also about the strength of the identity of the empire. Maybe some other folks might weigh in. Some great comments and I can see that you are a very deep thinker about these kinds of subjects.

In regard to the reading assignment for this period I am enthralled with the start of the book and the writing style. There is a great deal of information to absorb as I too was not familiar with this period. Therefore I am fascinated as I learn about the people and places she describes and their role in history. I think the mosaic chosen for the cover is very representative and sets the theme for the book very well. I am anxious to learn more about how the remnants of this civilization have shown up in so many parts of the world over time as she comments in the book. Thanks for all the discussion which will surely add to the understanding of the book as we move through it. I am already wishing I could visit Hagia Sophia and Istanbul. I have not been to any of the sites mentioned so far.

Hello Lynne, and welcome to the discussion. I too find myself in the same boat; I have not visited Turkey or Istanbul.

I think that Herrin is an exceptional writer; and I agree with your assessment.

That is a great question - how the remnants of this civilization have shown up in other parts of the world.

My first impression of this book, following my (rather slow!) read of Barbara W. Tuchman, was how simple Herrin's writing is in comparison! And that she tells a 1,000-year story in about half the pages that Tuchman used to cover 100 years... I thought this first week's reading was pretty quick going (relatively short chapters help as well).

One minor detail caught my attention: bubonic plague in 700-something. I was surprised that the plague was in Constantinople about 600 years before it hit Western Europe.

I agree with several who have noted that the term "Dark Ages" pertains to Western Europe. Apparently not too dark in Byzantium! (Nor, I think, in the Muslim world of that time.) One of the reasons I am eager to read this book is to be stretched beyond my Western Europe - US focus.

Mary Ellen wrote: "My first impression of this book, following my (rather slow!) read of [author:Barbara W. Tuchm..."

On the plague, it could have been a totally different disease than the "plague" that hit Europe later. The modern identity of all the various "plagues" that hit is not known. It was only recently did they get confirmation that the disease we know as bubonic plague is the same disease that ravaged Europe in the 1300s.

Makes sense, Patrirck. I was just surprised to see this plague, too, called the "bubonic plague."

What remarkable notes so far! I'm terribly sorry because I seem to be so slow reader - I have just managed to read the first two chapters, I had so much work to do in the last two weeks.
Regarding Bentley's assignment for this discussion, maybe I can tell something about people living today in Istanbul - they seem to have the same feeling of dignity and civic pride as Byzantine people Herrin talks about. Whoever was there on the spot, seeing the port and surroundings of Istanbul, must feel the same, as it does look like it's invincible and graceful, with so many old beautiful buildings and streets. Same goes with mosaics - watching the mosaics in Aya Sofia and this one of Zoe on the cover of the book, it's hard not to feel the grace, wisdom and somehow modest but anyway godlike appearance of the emperors/empress.
I've read really nice little Byzantium Guide that Bentley recommended in one of discussions regarding this book (I am really sorry Bentley, I would add a link to it, but I couldn't find it anymore), and I would add two perfect quotes that I think show exactly what Byzantine artists wanted to achieve with the icons that perfectly applies for the mosaics too:
"In creating icons, Byzantine artists adhered to traditional depictions of the saint or holy figure's facial features, pose and even their demeanour so that the viewer could easily identify the subject. Naturalistic details of landscape, space, light and proportions are eliminated in order to suggest a spiritual world that is separate from the earthly realm." (page 17)
"The use of gold as a background colour is used to specifically signify the light of heaven."(page 18)
I didn't find reading of the first two chapters of the book really difficult, I even think that the thematic approach of the material is better - this way as we go through the book and to all the material she refers to on the way, we may get the complete picture of the Byzantine empire, without segmenting it to the periods of each Byzantine ruler. That's my guess - I still have to move on to the next chapters :-)
Anyway, I did notice something while reading - Herrin didn't quite mention it, but considering all his achievements she did mention, I think that Constantine was really well educated emperor, and that his model for rulership over his people was the Persian emperor Cyrus the Great. He is famous for the first human rights and religious freedom charter in the world, and he's also that one king who had freed Jews from the Babylonian slavery and financed the renewal of Jerusalem, despite of different religious beliefs (he was Zoroastrian). I apologize if this goes beyond the boundaries of this discussion, I just wondered am I going to the right direction with the assumptions, as Herrin mentions that even if he was Christian (which seems still open for debate) he didn't stop other people to believe whatever they wanted to, even his son funded the building of one pagan temple. Also, he paid a lot of attention to the art, literature and philosophy, which shows how open-minded he was and cunning too in positive way, because we all know how people are easily impressed by some artwork when they find themselves in front of it, and how valuable is a written and/or spoken word by somebody whom people of that time respected as wise and worthy of following. I was deeply impressed seeing the mosaics, sculptures and architecture of Istanbul in general, how the people of that time - when they all were brand new! - wouldn't? Bentley, feel free to cut all of this stuff if you think it belongs somewhere else :-)

Zeljika, your post is quite fascinating. Are you saying that Cyrus the Great was the (Zoroastrian) and it was he (Cyrus) who freed the Jews from the Babylonian slavery and financed the renewal of Jerusalem? And that you felt that Constantine emulated Cyrus?

Maybe it would be better to read Constantine's biography, certainly some historians of that time did write about him. For an example, we know for certain that Alexander the Great admired Cyrus the Great very much, he even attended his grave when he was on his way through Persia. He (Alexander) was also Aristotle's student, which assuredly helped him a lot in his reign. Well, that wouldn't be such a surprise that Constantine was well-taught student too, who must have studied about the history of Roman and other emperors alike. Herrin already suggested that he was wise, tolerant and beneficent emperor, why wouldn't that be because he had some good examples from the past :-)

Regarding Cyrus, yes, that's the one mentioned in the Bible, that Jews admired as the righteous king, because he let them be what they are, despite them still being his vassals, meaning, not free completely although back in their own country. I wouldn't know much about Cyrus if I didn't have my graduation work on Persian Empire before the rise of Alexander the Great, and that's why I connected Constantine's doings with him, as they reminded me of the moves Cyrus made to appease all the people under his control, which made me admire him (Cyrus) too.

Very good background posts Zeljika, I enjoyed them very much.

Thank you for kind words - I admire and learn a lot from your posts, as well as from the other participants'.