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I think that the story should have taken a different twist with these two characters, I mean the khal should not have died. If he too fought with Dany to conquer the kingdoms maybe the story would turn much more climatically for all the tales "across the sea".

I think it is amazing that the twi have such a huge fanbase although he died in the first book^^

I admire the relationship that they had. I honestly thought that they won't work out. It is safe to say that they loved each other. Too bad Drogo died.

Roan wrote: "I admire the relationship that they had. I honestly thought that they won't work out. It is safe to say that they loved each other. Too bad Drogo died."

I agree. I think that they were able to find common ground, and he was able to respect her strength. She was willing to do what it took to make him see things from a different perspective.

Had he lived she wouldn't be who she became. She became a strong woman because of him and because he loved her and taught her things as she taught him things. I think it is how it should have been, a tragic love story. She is still young and will find love again.

They weren't a "perfect" couple by any stretch of the imagination, but they were very good together, yes.

hate to point out the age difference. but he was what? 30ish? and she was 14.

yeah, I know, common practice for the time, but with someone as young as her, it may not have ended well in any case.

But I do agree with Stacey on this stance. The only reason Daenerys was able to achieve this kind of independence was because of the (view spoiler)[loss of Drogo. Had he not died, she wouldn't have had the funeral pyre in which she gave birth to the dragons. (hide spoiler)]

There's no reason they wouldn't have had a wonderful life if certain circumstances didn't arise, but that's just part of the story. You might have felt better for them if it had, but it would have made for one boring book.

Just remember, what makes for an interesting story is catharsis. something has to go wrong for it to feel good when it goes right. No one likes stories that don't really go anywhere. Unless that was the point of the story, of course. =)

I really didn't. He desired her and took her-repeatedly-against her will for a long time. Her seduction of him only gave her some relief from his brutality, in my opinion.

I always felt she adapted to the situation, but used his reputation as Khal to get her way later on. She was devastated by his death because she knew she would have a harder time doing what she wants to have done-take over the iron throne.

I think she uses everyone to get what she wants which makes her a skeevy royal, no better than Cersei.

If they'd lived happily ever after there wouldn't be much of a story.

Jeni wrote: "I think she uses everyone to get what she wants which makes her a skeevy royal, no better than Cersei. "

You can't be serious - Dany does actually care for people. Cersei does not. (view spoiler)[Dany is plagued with guilt over the death of the little girl her dragon killed, Cersei would not have given a crap. Dany morns her late husband and misses Jorah Mormont, he could have been more use to her but she only sent him away because he betrayed her. Cersei has never cared for any of the men in her life - even Jamie has started to realize that Cersei only loves him for what he can do for her, which isn't much now that he's lost his sword hand. Dany has an overwhelming desire to protect and help people in need - she tried to protect that woman being raped and she looks after the little girl in her care. She sacrificed herself into a terrible marriage match in hopes of keeping the peace in Meereen, for the sake of the people. Cersei wouldn't give a crap if someone else was getting raped or if millions of people died in a war. I could go on and on. (hide spoiler)]

I am very serious. I think she cares for people, but only to the extent she can further her cause. I have no clue how to create a "view spoiler" warning to answer you, but I just got the impression of Dany that everything you mentioned can also be interpreted as the opposite of your view because they are detrimental to her goals.

I'm only expressing my view of her character though, not insisting I'm correct in that view. :)

I don't agree - (view spoiler)[her guilt over the girl killed by her dragon is very internal, she does not outwardly express it very much so it's not like she's pretending to feel guilty to make herself look good like Cersei would do. And I do think it's genuine guilt, not disappointed that it's going to make it more difficult for her to reach her goals. She is truly haunted by it and when she talks about it in her own head, it's never in reference how it will effect her goals. And ultimately, she could have abandoned Meereen to pursue her goal of taking Westeros but she chose to put her goal aside for the sake of the people of Meereen. She didn't have to do that - Cersei certainly wouldn't have! Cersei would have undoubtedly abandoned Meereen and carried on. (hide spoiler)]

Click where it says "some html is ok" to see how the spoiler tags are used. It's basically <*spoiler> text here <*/spoiler> with the asterisks removed.

Thank you. You make many good points, but each time I read the series, I just get the idea she is doing everything purposely with her own goal in mind.

Here are the opposite views I took away when I read about her.

(view spoiler)[ She is brutalized by her brother, then her husband. When she sees how powerful he is and how he can protect her from her brother, she decides it is way better to be powerful than helpless. She woos her husband to ensure his loyalty to her, not her brother.

Next, freeing the slaves of Meereen guarantees her an army. They will adore her and give her the disposable body of warriors she needs to overcome the throne.

The little girl that is killed by her dragon? She doesn't care about that girl except for the fact it looks really bad-like she's not in control. She hushes it up with money and locks up her dragons so it doesn't happen again until she is ready. I have no doubt she will feel no remorse at burning Lannisters when the time comes.

As for missing Jorah-he was smart and loyal and protective and she is finding out how vulnerable she really is. He also is the proof of her ancestry she will need when claiming the throne.

Her marriage in Meereen was in hopes of gaining another powerful force to ensure her claim to the throne is more stable. Not to mention the coffers a queen would have at her disposal. Not more than once has she wanted more money for ships to carry her to Westeros.

I also think Cersei would absolutely stall her goal to gain more followers if the ultimate end would be more support for her. I view Dany as doing the same thing. (hide spoiler)]

As I said, I just got the impression she was self-serving each time I've read the series. Now I need to read again, assuming she is innocent and naive and loving and see how that pans out. :)

(view spoiler)[Jeni wrote: "She is brutalized by her brother, then her husband. When she sees how powerful he is and how he can protect her from her brother, she decides it is way better to be powerful than helpless. She woos her husband to ensure his loyalty to her, not her brother."

True, but so what? That doesn't mean she didn't grow to love her husband. It just means she turned the situation around which shows positive qualities of strength and intelligence in my opinion. Do you not read the parts where she internally still thinks of and misses him? How does that benefit her goals?

"The little girl that is killed by her dragon? She doesn't care about that girl except for the fact it looks really bad-like she's not in control. She hushes it up with money and locks up her dragons so it doesn't happen again until she is ready. I have no doubt she will feel no remorse at burning Lannisters when the time comes."

You seem to judge her entirely on her actions and ignore all the internal dialogue and feelings she has. She is haunted by the girl - she thinks about her all the time, in true guilt. If she were Cersei, she would have forgotten about the girl and never given it another thought. True, Dany pays hush money but that's just smart in their world. Doesn't mean she doesn't feel guilt over it. (hide spoiler)]

I could reply to all the other points but ultimately, I'd just be saying the same thing: that you're judging her actions and ignoring critical elements of her internal dialogue that really tells us how she feels, which isn't a comprehensive assessment of her character.

I will definitely read again with your comments in mind. As I said previously, these were just my perceptions. After four read-throughs, I still feel she is a strong character, just not a romantic nor particularly kind one.

Okay, here's a bunch of quotes from Dance with Dragons that illustrates what I mean, so perhaps you don't have to reread the whole series/book. To me, these all show that Dany cares about the needs of the people (and regrests when she can't help them), feels genuine love and affection for certain individuals in her life, grieves them when they're gone, and feels truly guilty for certain things she has caused. All of it is internal dialogue that proves she has nothing to publically or politically gain from thinking or feelings these things. Dany is certainly ruthless with her enemies and shrewd in her politics most of the time, but that does not mean she is as self serving and coldhearted as Cersei and these should help illustrate that:

(view spoiler)["It was Drogo who had given her the pelt she wore, the head and hide of a hrakkar, the white lion of the Dothraki sea. It was too big for her and had a musty smell, but it made her feel as if her sun-and-stars was still near." - Cersei holds nothing in sentimental value, if I recall, nor does she think fondly of anyone she's lost. If Jamie died, she'd probably think of him in anger and bitterness that he'd "abandoned" her by dying and scorning everything that reminded her of him.

"She had hoped for a respite from the killing, for some time to build and heal." - Dany is thinking about the needs of Meereen here, not in terms of what that will provide for her. It's not been taken out of context, she makes no mention of how peace will benefit her, only the people. Does that mean she never considers how it will also benefit her? No. But it shows she does care about people for their sake too, not just her own. She speaks of peace a lot but rarely in reference to how it will benefit her.

"She was the blood of the dragon. She could kill the Sons of the Harpy, and the sons of the sons, and the sons of the sons of the sons. But a dragon could not feed a hungry child nor help a dying woman’s pain." - Again, she is thinking about the needs of the people and regrets that she can not help them. We never see internal dialogue like this from Cersei - she wouldn't have given the suffering of her people even a fleeting thought. Dany thinks on it often.

"Her name had been Hazzea. She was four years old. Unless her father lied. He might have lied. No one had seen the dragon but him. His proof was burned bones, but burned bones proved nothing. He might have killed the little girl himself, and burned her afterward. He would not have been the first father to dispose of an unwanted girl child, the Shavepate claimed. The Sons of the Harpy might have done it, and made it look like dragon’s work to make the city hate me. Dany wanted to believe that � but if that was so, why had Hazzea’s father waited until the audience hall was almost empty to come forward? If his purpose had been to inflame the Meereenese against her, he would have told his tale when the hall was full of ears to hear." - This shows that she is trying to aleve her guilt with irrational thoughts that the man had lied. But deep down, she knows better and has to admit it to herself. After these thoughts, she remembers how her advisers had urged her to kill the man or at least rip his tongue out but she refused, showing her mercy, of which Cersei has none of.

"“My dragons have grown, my shoulders have not. They range far afield, hunting.� Hazzea, forgive me." - Does this not show guilt? Would Cersei ever silently beg the forgivenness of a child whose death she was responsible for? I highly doubt it, Cersei would have thought the girl's life worthless and therefore her death of no consequence. She would not feel responsible at all. Dany does. Dany privately begs forgivenness for it. How does this help her achieve her goals? How is this self serving? It doesn't and isn't. It serves only to show us how Dany is human and genuinely cares about other people.

"Westeros. Home. But if she left, what would happen to her city?" - Here again she is worried about abandoning Meereen and what that will mean for the people there. What happens to Meereen after she leaves won't effect her goals so if she were truly as self serving as you believe, why should she care?

"Hazzea was enough. What good is peace if it must be purchased with the blood of little children?" - Again, haunted by Hazzea and unwilling to sacrifice children for the sake of peace.

"She thought of Stalwart Shield, of Missandei’s brother, of the woman Rylona Rhee, who had played the harp so beautifully. No marriage would ever bring them back to life, but if a husband could help end the slaughter, then she owed it to her dead to marry." - Would Cersei still be thinking of these specific people? No. Would she feel a responsibility to what she owed the people? No. Would she sacrifice herself to an unhappy marriage for peace? NEVER.

"A queen belongs not to herself but to her people." - Does this not show the sense of responsibility she feels to her people? That she will put their needs before herself?

"Those who had the strength called out. “Mother � please, Mother � bless you, Mother …� Bless me, Dany thought bitterly. Your city is gone to ash and bone, your people are dying all around you. I have no shelter for you, no medicine, no hope. Only stale bread and wormy meat, hard cheese, a little milk. Bless me, bless me." - Her bitterness and sarcasm here shows that Dany feels she does not deserve their praise, a humility that would be alien to Cersei. Dany is angry with herself that she can do nothing to help these people.

"I would give up my crown if he asked it of me, Dany thought � but he had not asked it, and never would." - Dany was talking about Daario here - how can she only use people to achieve her goals when she would give up all her goals for a man she'd fallen in love with?

There's much more of this but I'll stop here. Lastly, I'd just like to point out that Dany firmly sticks to her banishment of slavery and brutal entertainment, even though it actually makes her UNpopular with much of Meereen. She does it because she feels it's immoral, not because it benefits her because politically, because it doesn't. She refuses to allow the lions to be released and kill the dwarfs for the entertainment of Meereen, despite the fact that it's an unpopular decision. Cersei wouldn't have cared, she would have let it carry on without any thought to the idea of people dying for the entertainment of others.
(hide spoiler)]

You say that you'll have to reread it with the idea of Dany being innocent and naive in mind but that is not how I see her. Just because someone is shrewd and ambitious does not mean they care nothing for other human beings or that they have no moral compass save for how that will help them achieve their goals. Does Dany think about how things will benefit her, how to accomplish her goals? Of course. She wouldn't be a leader if she didn't. But that doesn't mean it's the ONLY thing she considers. Dany is not so one-dimension that she can't consider both. She is by no means innocent and naive but that does not mean she can't genuinely care for people. That is what is so great about these books, the characters are SO multidimension and I'm sorry but I think that you're missing this and looking at Dany far too one dimensionally.

Thanks for your thoughts and examples. I've enjoyed our dialogue!

The marriage bettween Dany and Drogo reminded me of women born some 50 years ago. They had no choice who they have to marry and they love whoever guy ties a knot around the neck. No choice over where to go and who to live with. Like rebirth. Whichever life you enter into, you have to love it and struggle to make it better. That is exactly what Daenerys did.

Unfortunately for her, Drogo died just when she is getting used to life with him around.

I never liked Drogo all that much. He was never a loving man. He never gave much thought for what Daenerys really desired. He took her as his queen and tried to protect her honor. But he never really tried to know what Daenerys truly desired from a marriage. I still feel sad he's dead. It only made her life worse.

Okay, off topic but 50 years ago was only 1962 - I would not say that people had no choice in who they married in the 60s! There might have been greater expectations and prejudice but even in the 40s, my grandmother broke off her original engagement on her own accord (he was an alcoholic) and then later married my grandfather (who ironically wound up becoming an alcoholic later in life) - all her own choice.

just throwing this in there....still to this day in certain cultures they still have arranged marriages (since u were talkin time frame 60's and 40's)

Robin wrote: "Okay, off topic but 50 years ago was only 1962 - I would not say that people had no choice in who they married in the 60s! There might have been greater expectations and prejudice but even in the 4..."

Robin, I should've mentioned that I'm from India. In India, 50 years ago, most women's personal choice about marriage is invalid. Things changed a lot now. We express our desires in front of relatives without getting marked as brash and conceited. But even now most of us don't want to get married against our parents's choice.

Happybooker wrote: "Robin wrote: "Okay, off topic but 50 years ago was only 1962 - I would not say that people had no choice in who they married in the 60s! There might have been greater expectations and prejudice but..."

Indian marriages are mostly arranged but then again according to statistics only less than 5% of those marriages end up as a divorce. Also most parents know and love their children well enough to find them a respectable match but afterall it is tradition. I'm not saying arranged marriages are all successful, but most of them work their problems through in the end.

Anju wrote: "Indian marriages are mostly arranged but then again according to statistics only less than 5% of those marriages end up as a divorce."

Which tells us nothing about how truly happy the couples are though - in cultures where adult children are expected to go along with whatever their parents choose for them, they are unlikely to go against that and later divorce.

Jeni wrote: "I really didn't. He desired her and took her-repeatedly-against her will for a long time. Her seduction of him only gave her some relief from his brutality, in my opinion.

I always felt she adap..."

I agree she desires power but i do not agree that power is what she wanted the most. If she desired the most is power, then the final distraction for her in the house of the undying should not be her supposed family (Drogo and the child). It should have been the iron throne that seemed to appear as a secondary distraction and was also shown before drogo and the child.

They were good together. He was going to do everything to protect her, and respected her. She's a boss now, but I wish Khal Drogo had lived.

They were an awesome couple, definitely very different from each other, so they complimented each other. I am just wondering if she will will find that kind of love again. I hope so...

I'm of the opposite opinion, one slightly more in line with Jeni's above.

In fact, that's an understatement as I nearly choked on my tea when I read the discussion thread's title as 'Who found Daenerys and Khal Drogo to be the perfect couple even with so many differences?'

Perfect couple? He's a mass-murdering rapist and she's a child who's been subjected physically, emotionally and (it's hinted right at the beginning of the first book) more than likely sexually abused by her vile brother.

That she has a weakness for such men is clear in the way she despises the effeminate affectation of the men of Qarth (e.g. Xaro Xhoan Daxos), but can't stop herself from falling head over heels for Daario Naharis.

It's true Drogo becomes apparently more tender when she falls pregnant, but I think that has more to do with what's in her belly than Dany herself.

Yes, she does often wax lyrical about her 'sun-and-stars' throughout the whole of the series but the way I read it was this:

After a lifetime's oppression by her brother, she is finally freed by one yet more brutal, stronger and domineering than her brother ever was.

As Khaleesi, she gains a kind of independence to exercise her will in a way she has never known before. If she thinks fondly of her late Khal I think it is in two ways:
(1) negatively, in the way that a battered wife still 'loves' her husband, indeed, in the way battered wives all over the world seem to interpret the physical violence as a sign of love (in Dany's case, she has learned that brother = violent = love)
(2) positively, in the way I said above - she can finally *do* stuff in the world.

I laughed out loud at Jeni's description of her as another 'skeevy royal', though I disagree slightly that she *only* frees slaves etc. to further her own cause (though that is certainly part of it).

I think she loves it that the freedmen call her 'mother' because having responsibility for others is another way of being in power over them.

But I also think that freeing slaves is not just tactical on her part, but also an act of vengeance - she sees her own childhood oppression reflected in them (i.e. like them, she had absolutely no power or control over her life, she was a slave to her brother's whims). Now that she can no longer take her revenge out directly on her brother, she does it on the slave masters and so on.

Sorry for being a party-pooper, but I just don't see any romance in this.

Khal Drogo was a killer/rapist who led an army of killers and rapists. If he had lived to conquer the Seven Kingdoms, then there would have been much destruction, slaughter, and rape.

And yet I still see women mooning over the disgusting character. Someone even said that Drogo respected Daenerys. I agree that he did, but only because she acted as a normal, complacent, willing wife. If she started to, for example, be unwilling to have sex, then he would probably go right back to raping her.

I think that they really started to understand each other and to complement each other. What started off as an arranged, political marriage grew in to love, i think.

Keep in mind that they never set eyes on each other before the marriage and didn´t even spoke the same language.

All in all, they endend up loving each other, it was not a one way street. He endend up respecting and loving her and she started to love him, despite de rocky start.

Kim wrote: "Khal Drogo was a killer/rapist who led an army of killers and rapists. If he had lived to conquer the Seven Kingdoms, then there would have been much destruction, slaughter, and rape.

And yet I still see women mooning over the disgusting character. Someone even said that Drogo respected Daenerys. I agree that he did, but only because she acted as a normal, complacent, willing wife. If she started to, for example, be unwilling to have sex, then he would probably go right back to raping her."

Actually, he started to respect her when she took some control in the bedroom. And his respect was solidified when she ate an entire raw horses heart. Hardly the normal or complacent wife. She stood up to him several times.

However, I agree that Drogo was nothing but a brut and had he lived to take the seven kingdoms, he either wouldn't have been able to handle it or would have degraded the nation into the uncivilized tribal world he lived in. Dany loved him because he freed her from her abusive brother and made her a "queen", gave her a taste of power, and allowed her to find her confidence. Of course, I'm not sure he did any of that intentionally, but she still loved him for it. Perhaps her love was a little misguided but at least it brought her happiness for a period of time.