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anyone else notice the part where even umbridge can't witness her own cruelty?

✝✝ Lunaria ✝✝�� wrote: "anyone else notice the part where even umbridge can't witness her own cruelty?"

She's only interested in the aftermath. She doesn't want to see how the sausages are made, so to speak, but she does enjoy the taste.

but she has some bit of human in her..

✝✝ Lunaria ✝✝�� wrote: "but she has some bit of human in her.."

In the sense that she is a human, of course. I suppose she has enough decency not to outwardly take glee in torture.

Hermione, do you really think that tricking someone into freedom is nice? You are just taking their choices away from tehm the same that the people that enslaved them. Even if it is for a nice cause.

Alexandra Elend Wolf wrote: "Hermione, do you really think that tricking someone into freedom is nice? You are just taking their choices away from tehm the same that the people that enslaved them. Even if it is for a nice cause."

Really, coercion is the literal opposite of freedom. She might think she's advocating for emancipation, but she's just robbing them of their free will.

It's very interesting, because this book was written during the Iraq War, and I'm sure the whole "Democracy for Iraq" question was at the root of this. It's the exact same situation and can't be a coincidence.

LOL

✝✝ Lunaria ✝✝�� wrote: "LOL"

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Jayson wrote: "Alexandra Elend Wolf wrote: "Hermione, do you really think that tricking someone into freedom is nice? You are just taking their choices away from tehm the same that the people that enslaved them. ..."

Yeah, if the elves were happy helping around the castle then it was their choice to remain there. Sure she could tell them and explain everything to them but at the end of the day what matters is what they wanted to do.

They also weren't human so it's a mistake to apply human laws to them. They had their own laws and philosophies, which completely fine.

I know Hermione meant well but she really went around that doing what she thought was best. Not too different from what she was fighting against.

Huh, I didn't know about the "Democracy for Iraq" thing. It's pretty interesting -or it would be - if Rowling really meant to reflect that with her book.

Alexandra Elend Wolf wrote: "They also weren't human so it's a mistake to apply human laws to them. They had their own laws and philosophies, which completely fine."

Exactly, it's the moral relativist argument. You can't tell cultures what is or is not proper according to their own traditions, so long as people are willing participants. And house elves kind of get high off gratitude. They live for pleasing people, and will get emotional when gratitude is expressed. Now, Hermione might think it akin to some kind of opium addiction that clouds cognitive reasoning, but no one's being abused (except with notable exceptions like Dobby and the Malfoys) and only good seems to come from the reciprocal relationship.

Alexandra Elend Wolf wrote: "I know Hermione meant well but she really went around that doing what she thought was best. Not too different from what she was fighting against."

It's often in the pursuit of good, that we become the thing which we most hate.

Alexandra Elend Wolf wrote: "Huh, I didn't know about the "Democracy for Iraq" thing. It's pretty interesting -or it would be - if Rowling really meant to reflect that with her book."

I believe I might have read or heard her speaking about that parallel in an interview, though being years ago, I can't pinpoint which one.

Pretty much, the US wanted to install a democratic government in Iraq, with free elections and accountable government, and while some people were for it, most people were either not ready for it or were happy with strongman government.

It's a complicated question whether an objective good is good in all situations. Eating healthy, for example, is an objective good, but imposition is often rebuffed and rebelled against.

Exactly. I don't belive the elves from Hogwarts were being treated unfairly or meanly.

Sure, as you say, there are those that do treat them incorrectly and those are the ones that could need, say, regulations over it. But distroying it because of a few is a mistake.

I didn't know about the whole Iraqi thing but I can't say that I'm surprised by it.

I believe every country, culture, should be able to find what works for them and what they are comfortable with. Regardless of what everyone else says.

I think Hermione definitely had a pure intention and goal , but executed and tried to reach it terribly

Alexandra Elend Wolf wrote: "Sure, as you say, there are those that do treat them incorrectly and those are the ones that could need, say, regulations over it. But distroying it because of a few is a mistake."

I think something like a house elf department within the Ministry would be useful to field complaints and to remedy real abuse. Though, I don't know how effective that would be since I doubt it's in the nature of house elves to say anything negative about their masters. Even Dobby didn't really complain about the Malfoys, Harry had to read between the lines and see the abuse in person before he got the idea to do anything about it.

Alexandra Elend Wolf wrote: "I believe every country, culture, should be able to find what works for them and what they are comfortable with. Regardless of what everyone else says."

Yeah, I feel the same way. I'm from the Philippines but I live in Canada, and there are certain practices and beliefs in both that simply would not be tolerated in the other country. You sort of have to adjust your behavior to the locals, and do as the Romans do.

Layla wrote: "I think Hermione definitely had a pure intention and goal , but executed and tried to reach it terribly"

Yeah, a "by any means" approach is often regarded negatively with hindsight. People get too caught up in the moment to waver in any way from their immediate goals and ambitions. It's a kind of bloodlust that manifests in battles of any sort.

I didn't like that Dobby wasn't in the Goblet of Fire movie and also the whole S.P.E.W thing. But how could they add so much in one movie though, it'd be really long i guess

Sakshi wrote: "I didn't like that Dobby wasn't in the Goblet of Fire movie and also the whole S.P.E.W thing. But how could they add so much in one movie though, it'd be really long i guess"

That's why I've always felt Harry Potter would have made a much better television series than a film series. Things wouldn't have to be so rushed and condensed, and it would have the breathing room to be more faithful to the books.

I'm also reading the same book. I'm on 2nd chapter.

The Ash And Deep wrote: "I'm also reading the same book. I'm on 2nd chapter."

Great to hear that. Hope you have a fun time with it :)

Jayson wrote: "Alexandra Elend Wolf wrote: "Sure, as you say, there are those that do treat them incorrectly and those are the ones that could need, say, regulations over it. But distroying it because of a few is..."

Hmm, the department seems like a good idea but, yeah, elves don't seem like the type to actually complain... maybe surprise inspections could work? Or some kind of spell? Because they are wizards so I'm sure there must be -or they can create - a spell that tells them if an elf has been mistreated, right?

You absolutely have to adjust! I live in El Salvador but my parents are from Nicaragua and though costumes are pretty much the same the vocabulary changes drastically and you have to definitely adjust to that.

Alexandra Elend Wolf wrote: "Hmm, the department seems like a good idea but, yeah, elves don't seem like the type to actually complain... maybe surprise inspections could work? Or some kind of spell?"

I don't know if inspections would work. Evidence for house elf abuse would probably only be seen physically, but then house elves do have a tendency to beat themselves up at the mere suggestion that they displeased their masters. And it's not like the dark magical object inspection from the second book, which even only worked because Ron told his dad exactly where to look.

On the other hand, some sort of monitoring spell would almost certainly work, though then you're in nanny-cam territory and that's tantamount to having government surveillance systems in a private residence. It's all very complicated. Like any abusive relationship, it's pretty impossible to prosecute if the victim is compliant and won't press charges.

Jayson wrote: "Alexandra Elend Wolf wrote: "Hmm, the department seems like a good idea but, yeah, elves don't seem like the type to actually complain... maybe surprise inspections could work? Or some kind of spel..."

Yeah... government surveillance in your house wouldn't go down great... Maybe a long round of conscientization to the elves? But, yet again, that would take a long time and the success is not guaranteed...

Alexandra Elend Wolf wrote: "Yeah... government surveillance in your house wouldn't go down great... Maybe a long round of conscientization to the elves? But, yet again, that would take a long time and the success is not guaranteed..."

Seems a lot like what Hermione was trying to do, at least initially, before she was kicked out of the kitchens and resorted to deception.

Jayson wrote: "Alexandra Elend Wolf wrote: "Yeah... government surveillance in your house wouldn't go down great... Maybe a long round of conscientization to the elves? But, yet again, that would take a long time..."

Hahaha, yeah, just lest's not loose hope so quickly XD

Alexandra Elend Wolf wrote: "Hahaha, yeah, just lest's not loose hope so quickly XD"

I'm sure she continues her advocacy once she graduates Hogwarts. that Hermione greatly improved the quality of life for house-elves after her graduation. While not the freedom she intended, it's about as good as could be done, given the circumstances.

Jayson wrote: "Alexandra Elend Wolf wrote: "Hahaha, yeah, just lest's not loose hope so quickly XD"

I'm sure she continues her advocacy once she graduates Hogwarts. Rowling has said that Hermione greatly improve..."

Yeah. But, a complete freedom wasn't the bestway to go either. At least not immediately.

Alexandra Elend Wolf wrote: "Yeah. But, a complete freedom wasn't the bestway to go either. At least not immediately."

Ultimately, it's about what's best for the elves. In terms of freedom, Hermione should present her case for it if she believes it's genuinely correct, but also needs to accept when others disagree with her and not force her opinions on others. It's nearly always her inability to accept disagreement that results in her frequent arguments with Ron.

Jayson wrote: "Alexandra Elend Wolf wrote: "Yeah. But, a complete freedom wasn't the bestway to go either. At least not immediately."

Ultimately, it's about what's best for the elves. In terms of freedom, Hermio..."

True. Strong beliefs are so important, sure, but pushing your beliefs is borderin into bullying and not great. A good argument can sway someone but that's as far as we can go.

Alexandra Elend Wolf wrote: "True. Strong beliefs are so important, sure, but pushing your beliefs is borderin into bullying and not great. A good argument can sway someone but that's as far as we can go."

Yeah, winning hearts and minds isn't an overnight endeavor.

Jayson wrote: "Sakshi wrote: "I didn't like that Dobby wasn't in the Goblet of Fire movie and also the whole S.P.E.W thing. But how could they add so much in one movie though, it'd be really long i guess"

That's..."

That would've been so much better, do you think Netflix would've done a good job?

Sakshi wrote: "That would've been so much better, do you think Netflix would've done a good job?"

Yes, I think so. They seem to have a very good track record with adaptations. I think a Harry Potter series would actually be ideal as a cartoon. That way you wouldn't have to worry about wizarding attire looking silly in real life, or recasting and writing out characters like the film had to do.

Jayson wrote: "Sakshi wrote: "That would've been so much better, do you think Netflix would've done a good job?"

Yes, I think so. They seem to have a very good track record with adaptations. I think a Harry Pott..."

True, anime would be awesome!

Sakshi wrote: "True, anime would be awesome!"

I'd be down for something like that :)

Jayson wrote: "Alexandra Elend Wolf wrote: "Hermione, do you really think that tricking someone into freedom is nice? You are just taking their choices away from tehm the same that the people that enslaved them. ..."

This is a really interesting take on SPEW! Hermione meant well, but I actually read an essay that said Harry had the more correct approach towards house-elves and would have improved wizard-elf relations more than Hermione, because he didn't condescend towards the elves. He definitely didn't treat them as slaves, but also not as simple victims either. He was just respectful and friendly.

Janhavi wrote: "Jayson wrote: "Alexandra Elend Wolf wrote: "Hermione, do you really think that tricking someone into freedom is nice? You are just taking their choices away from tehm the same that the people that ..."

Harry often has the best approach to things. He's the sober middle ground between Hermione's insistence and Ron's indifference.

Jayson wrote: "Janhavi wrote: "Jayson wrote: "Alexandra Elend Wolf wrote: "Hermione, do you really think that tricking someone into freedom is nice? You are just taking their choices away from tehm the same that ..."

Yeah, I noticed that theme. Ron's one extreme, Hermione's another, and Harry is the "middle path". A representation of that theme is Ron being a pureblood, Hermione, a muggleborn and Harry being half and half.

Janhavi wrote: "Yeah, I noticed that theme. Ron's one extreme, Hermione's another, and Harry is the "middle path". A representation of that theme is Ron being a pureblood, Hermione, a muggleborn and Harry being half and half."

Yeah, there's a lot of symbolism in these books that aren't on the surface obvious, but make a lot of sense and stand out upon closer inspection.