Å·±¦ÓéÀÖ

Hello Everyone,

For the week of May 12th - May 17th, we are reading the Prologue and Chapter One of Hanns and Rudolf..

The first week's reading assignment is:

Week One - May 12th - May 17th
List of Illustrations, Maps, Prologue and Chapter One - Rudolf, Baden-Baden, Germany, 1901 - pages ix - 17:

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

This book is being kicked off on May 12th.

We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, local bookstore or on your Kindle. Make sure to pre-order now if you haven't already. This weekly thread will be opened up May 12th.

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.

Bentley will be leading this discussion and back-up will be Assisting Moderators Jerome, Kathy and Libby.

Welcome,

~Bentley

TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL

by Thomas Harding

REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS - ON EACH WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREAD - WE ONLY DISCUSS THE PAGES ASSIGNED OR THE PAGES WHICH WERE COVERED IN PREVIOUS WEEKS. IF YOU GO AHEAD OR WANT TO ENGAGE IN MORE EXPANSIVE DISCUSSION - POST THOSE COMMENTS IN ONE OF THE SPOILER THREADS. THESE CHAPTERS HAVE A LOT OF INFORMATION SO WHEN IN DOUBT CHECK WITH THE CHAPTER OVERVIEW AND SUMMARY TO RECALL WHETHER YOUR COMMENTS ARE ASSIGNMENT SPECIFIC. EXAMPLES OF SPOILER THREADS ARE THE GLOSSARY, THE BIBLIOGRAPHY, THE INTRODUCTION AND THE BOOK AS A WHOLE THREADS.

Notes:

It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.

Citations:

If an author or book is mentioned other than the book and author being discussed, citations must be included according to our guidelines. Also, when citing other sources, please provide credit where credit is due and/or the link. There is no need to re-cite the author and the book we are discussing however.

If you need help - here is a thread called the Mechanics of the Board which will show you how:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/2...

Introduction Thread:

/topic/show/...

Table of Contents and Syllabus

/topic/show/...

Glossary

Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed.

/topic/show/...

Bibliography

There is a Bibliography where books cited in the text are posted with proper citations and reviews. We also post the books that the author used in his research or in his notes. Please also feel free to add to the Bibliography thread any related books, etc with proper citations. No self promotion, please.

/topic/show/...

Book as a Whole and Final Thoughts - SPOILER THREAD

/topic/show/...

by Thomas Harding

Directions on how to participate in a book offer and how to follow the t's and c's - Hanns and Rudolf - What Do I Do Next?

/topic/show/...

All, we do not have to do citations regarding the book or the author being discussed during the book discussion on these discussion threads - nor do we have to cite any personage in the book being discussed while on the discussion threads related to this book.

However if we discuss folks outside the scope of the book or another book is cited which is not the book and author discussed then we do have to do that citation according to our citation rules. That makes it easier to not disrupt the discussion. Thought that I would add that

Chapter Overview and Summary:

Prologue:

The author presents some background information on his uncle - Howard Harvey Alexander and what was the stimulus for the book itself.

Chapter One:

The readers meet Rudolf Franz Ferdinand Hoss who was born on November 25, 1901 in Baden, Baden - Germany.

There are descriptions of Baden Baden and its influence on a very young Rudolf.

The events of Chapter One follow Rudolf through his very young life up to November 17, 1917.

All, welcome to the discussion of Hanns and Rudolf. We are happy to have all of you with us. There are folks who are still waiting for their books - but we will open up the threads and move forward with the kick off - I have purposely made Week One lighter for that reason.

Please post and check the table of contents and syllabus.

We Begin:

As an introduction - for all folks who have received your book and for those of you who will receive your book via the generous book offer from Simon and Schuster - please post a brief intro here for your fellow readers of Hanns and Rudolf- introducing yourself and at the same time give us your general impression of the Prologue and Chapter One and details that made an impression on you right from the start - Remember we are only talking about ix - 17 right now.

We are open!

Questions for Discussion:

What were your impressions of Baden, Baden and how Rudolf Hoss grew up? Were there any clues or factors in Rudolf's young background that you feel would be a factor as to the man that he would ultimately become?

To introduce myself, I am Teri and enjoy all things history related. As a hobby and a bit of a part-time career, am a genealogist/researcher with a degree in history. As a professional career I work in the technology sector.

Personally, I really liked seeing how Mr. Harding spelled out his reason for writing his book in the prologue, being the great-nephew of Hanns. I have done my own research/writing to verify/nullify family legacies. To me, this is like putting together a puzzle where you have a vague idea of what the outcome/picture is that never comes fully into focus until all the pieces are put together.

I felt that Rudolf's childhood will be very telling of his future. He may have been planning on becoming a priest, but obviously this was his father's plan and Rudolf was quick to shrug that course in life when his father died. I would imagine that his constant struggles and loss will help shape the man he will become. One thing that I thought about while reading Chapter One is how Hitler was raised Catholic and would reportedly profess to have a Christian heritage in the media during his rise and WWII to garner public support, but personally was very anti-Christian. I think this somewhat parallel's Rudolf's upbringing in the Church but seems to move away from it. I will be interested to see Rudolf's thoughts on Hitler as we move forward in the book.

Adolf Hitler

Hi Teri, I enjoyed the Prologue too. It is always interesting to me to find out more about my ancestor's. And how nice it would be to find out that one had a hero for an ancestor.

I believe Baden-Baden although small was not all that different from other small forest German towns. Nor does Rudolf's childhood seem exceptional dismal. I think it is Rudolph's own choices that make the biggest difference in who he will become. I don't think that distant parents were that unusual at this time and place.

Teri wrote: "To introduce myself, I am Teri and enjoy all things history related. As a hobby and a bit of a part-time career, am a genealogist/researcher with a degree in history. As a professional career I w..."

Teri, I was thinking something similar as I read about Rudolf's disillusion with the church after the priest failed to keep his confidence. As you said, it does seem to parallel Hitler. His finding a father figure while in the military also as a very young person, and one who died while in battle, I think, put him in the direction of needing a stronger belief and support system than he had.

Adolf Hitler

On page 2, Harding says 'We live in an age when the waters are closing over the history of the Second World War...'. That is especially true because my generation, the children of the 2nd WW, are also dying out. This story becomes important because it is not about the 'big' figures, but about smaller players and their narratives must also be told to flesh out the reality of the War for future generations.

G wrote: "On page 2, Harding says 'We live in an age when the waters are closing over the history of the Second World War...'. That is especially true because my generation, the children of the 2nd WW, are a..."

Nice point, G. Thanks.

You make it very clear from that first chapter: just like Rudolph's early experiences with death and war led to him to a career of death and war, it happened to hundreds of other boys like him. That's not an excuse, but it's certainly an explanation.

Hello, Bryan here, glad to join all of you.

You also see Rudolph's lack of empathy a bit, too, in these pages, especially with his family.

It it interesting that he likes to please an authority figure, which might explain some of future.

Folks don't forget to say hello and meet the fellow readers of the book and give a brief hi and then give us your initial impressions. Some great comments thus far.

I think the prologue really set the stage well, particularly the part about that the reasons this story was not widely known will be revealed later in book. Excellent tease, can't wait to find out why!

Hi Folks - these are my week or so old initial comments
-------------------------------
So it is interesting to me that there is note of a Jewish avenger � not only a victim.

But Hanns was a Jew that left Germany in time, I assume so as he fought in the British army, so it was a Jew that took action from the beginning. Maybe that is a dividing line. I want to see through the rest of the story if there is a reason his Nazi hunting was not made public.

That Rudolf self determined after his father’s death to be his own man of action is telling too. So he will, within some society limits, form or forge his own path. I tried to find some comparative data and failed but I assume that considering the high likelihood of fatality on the Western Front if wounded and since Rudolf was wounded three times in WW I that care and speed of care arriving was faster in Africa than in the trench warfare in Flanders and France.

Both characters already begin to have an identity.
---------------------

Glad to be back to reading - I want to keep moving - this book is an easy read so far for an historical work.

Vince

PS - Also Mr. Bentley glad to have you back

I am Rick and I have been interested in History my whole life (BA in History-long ago) I am especially interested in WWII and how it began, how Germany accepted Hitler and pursued its goals throughout the war. This book should add to my understanding of that time and place...

I enjoyed the personal nature of how how the two main characters are introduced. Being related to one of the characters gives the author an advantage in providing Hanns' perspective. Not wanting to skip ahead, I think the balanced nature of his approach is very good. Starting with Rudolf, and having been to Baden Baden and the Black Forest, it is easier to imagine what it would have been like, now over a century ago. This part of the book also provides a framework for Rudolf's outlook on life, both his desire for farming, horses and presumably nature; versus his military service in WWI. Clearly, his service colored his life afterwards, as it did with most all how served during that time. It also sets up his relationship with leader figures and the kinds of people he admires.

Hi, I live in Richmond, VA and I just love reading history. I was a history minor in college, eons ago (Spanish major). I love British history, some Russian history, and American history. History reading about the Holocaust is also a big interest.

As I lived in Bavaria, Germany from '58 - '62, I wonder if I ever went to Baden-Baden? We lived in Oberammergau, southwest of Munich. I can picture what I imagine Baden Baden looked like.

Since a lot of Holocaust survivors did not speak of their experiences for many years and it's only more recently that many have now written books about their experiences, maybe it was the same for Hanns - what you did during WWII was just not something you talked about back then. It's a shame, though, as it would have been neat to hear things from his own mouth. If he were alive, today, maybe he would've opened up for the writing of this book.

Richard wrote: "I am Rick and I have been interested in History my whole life (BA in History-long ago) I am especially interested in WWII and how it began, how Germany accepted Hitler and pursued its goals through..."

I agree with you Richard. I was impressed that the author treated both men as equally as possible and was not writing this book to show how evil Rudolph was but instead,,looking for the answer to the question he posed on pg. 3 of the Prologue..."How does a man become a mass murderer?........"

Hi everyone, I am Sarah from Virginia. I am a veteran and currently work in the medical field. I love history but became especially interested in WWII history in college after attending a 55th reunion of 35 German Jews that emigrated to my aunt's farm in Virginia just prior to the breakout of WWII. The farm was originally bought by the Thalhimer's of Richmond for the sole purpose of emigrating German Jews and not long after WWII it was obtained by my aunt's family.

I thought the prologue was fabulous - learning right away exactly how and why this book came to be.

In Chapter 1 the very first thing that caught my attention was that he "fell in love" with horses and that he and his pony Hans were "inseparable." As an animal lover I know that it is not unusual for a murderer to be cruel or unkind to animals and pets especially early in life. I certainly look forward to finding out how and when that all changed or rather how he ended up becoming the man he was.

What a wonderful story about the history of your aunt's farm. Not many Americans were recognizing the dangers that faced European Jews.

Good point about the animals, Sarah. We usually hear that "serial killers" start out with animals. But I think we know that the Jew in the Nazi ideology was lower than any animal and they were a convenient target as a group every time some financial/political crisis occurred. And was Rudolph a "serial killer" (although "mass murderer" is the appropriate term here) or a man who was indoctrinated by a government that saw nothing wrong with getting rid of a population of people which was staining the purity of Germany and was "just following orders"?.....throwing aside morality for loyalty to an ideology and still maintain a love for animals.

Hello all.
From all I've seen and read history is made in the moments someone has to make a decision based on character. These split seconds make or destroy legacies.
But, for me, the most interesting aspects are what events leading to these momentous decisions. Examining the Prologue and early chapter or two of Harding's book, I'm most struck by the disparate upbringings / environments of Hanns & Rudolph. One from a 'dying' agrarian background while the other from an exciting, urban life. You can feel the tension right away as you know how so much of the story will play out.
I look forward to continuing the journey.

Hi, I'm DACHokie (Dave). I live in Blacksburg, VA and I've been consuming everything World War II since I was in the 6th grade (back in the 1970s). Living a college town has enabled me to meet many professors who lived through the war in Europe before coming to the US. Sadly, on such individual survived Nazi persecution only to be killed in the massacre that occurred here in 2007.

It's hard to refrain from digging into this book as the prologue and first chapter are quite tantalizing. A few things that caught my eye about Hoss was his relationship (or lack of) with his father, the father like figure in the military who was killed and his experience in the Great War. I think these elements could have contributed to him becoming emotionally detached. Additionally, that brief mentioning of him being kidnapped by Gypsys when he was five seemed to gloss over seriously traumatic event ... I wanted to know more about this incident.

Hi all. I am Brian from Pennsylvania. From visiting Gettysburg in school, though a BA in History to now, I am a long time history nut. This is my first discussion on Å·±¦ÓéÀÖ.

So far, I am digging this book. I thought the Prologue sets up the story quite well and gives it a personal feel.
I think we get a lot of insight to Rudolph's personality in the first chapter. His childhood issues and his experiences in World War I will most likely have a huge impact on the adult he will become.

Hi Dave, I grew up very near you in Newport. That is so sad about your professor escaping Nazi Germany to later die in the VT tragedy. I agree I think this is going to be a terrific read and will find it difficult not to dive right in. My first impression of the kidnapping was did he make that up since he had no friends and wasn't particularly close to his family? Was that a common occurrence?

Hello everyone. I'm Donna joining you from Pennsylvania. I'm a retired teacher with a passion for history. Although I'm not particularly well-read when it comes to WWII, I have struggled to understand or come to terms in some way with the psychological and social underpinnings of the horror of the Holocaust. This book promises to be a fascinating look at two individuals - as Harding says, "self-evidently, human beings" (p. xix) - whose lives were intertwined both with this particular time in history and with each other.

I’m Cary and a love the stories that history has left for us to explore.

Rudolf was kidnapped, taught to do as told without question while doing so with his full passion, and betrayed by someone he had the utmost trust in before hitting adulthood. Yikes. With this, I fully believe that his childhood and WWI years led him to the path that he followed.

He fervently and rigorously followed everything that he was told to follow, making him a perfect person to follow even the most heinous of commands. Loyalty was not an issue for young Rudolf, but as we all know loyalty can be misguided. Mix this in with the betrayal of the priest he closely trusted, and having his sense of duty and honor taught to him in trenches while maturing into adulthood, the ingredients were all mixed early and often for what is to come of Mr. Rudolf’s future.

I agree with Dave’s observation of the Gypsy kidnapping; it seems to me that this event had to have had some effect on how Rudolph’s personality developed and was addressed in a matter of face way. Perhaps it was the need to feel safe that led to his ease of following whatever orders he was given.

Greetings all. I am posting from Quincy MA, big fan of any kind of history, really enjoy military or nautical historical fiction as well.
Donna said " I have struggled to understand or come to terms in some way with the psychological and social underpinnings of the horror of the Holocaust." and I feel the same way. One thing I find horrifying is that the Holocaust happened such a short time ago! I read of atrocities in the middle ages and think "how awful, but that's how it was back then". It seems somehow more horrifying to me that mass exterminations took place a short 70 years ago.
"Just following orders" - what an awful phrase.

I have been an 'armchair' history fan since I read Johnny Tremain in grade school. I will read pretty much any history as long as it is well written and engaging. For the past few years I have been drawn to WW2 histories.

I think it is unfortunate that we don't have more pictures of Rudolf. That is of course understandable, but looking at the photos, I am left in my minds eye with a stunning, happy photo portrait of the twins Hanns and Paul, and a rather slapdash and dour Höss family portrait. What a contrast.

by Esther Forbes

Johnny Tremain was one of my favorites, too, G!!

Hi. I'm Kressel, an Orthodox Jewish woman living in the Hasidic neighborhood of Monsey, NY. No questions yet because I'm early in the book, but I'm sure I'll post as I go along.

Cary wrote: "He fervently and rigorously followed everything that he was told to follow, making him a perfect person to follow even the most heinous of commands. Loyalty was not an issue for young Rudolf, but as we all know loyalty can be misguided."

Good point Cary. I will say that my skeptical side wonders if there is some revisionist history going on here though. Is Rudolph trying to make it easier for us to believe the "just following orders" excuse?

I also found this statement fascinating:

page 9
Indeed, Rudolph recalled not being close to anyone in his family. He might shake somebody's hand or say a few words of thanks, but he was not a child who enjoyed physical touch.

Does this make it easier to dehumanize those around you? I don't know, just trying to wrap my head around this guy.

Hello everyone, my name is Therissa, I have a BA in History as well and I have always had an interest the events surrounding the World Wars in particular.

I also agree with the previous comments about the Rudolph's kidnapping. Another event that stuck out to me was the incident with the Priest. I think that breach in trust could have played into Rudolph’s personality as well.

Nice comments, all. Your insights are such a nice addition to reading the book. And I do enjoy the book so far. But I think it is okay that I can't wrap my head around Rudolph -- not someone I really want to understand. Just enough so that I can avoid his choices completely.

Hello everyone. My name is Jamie Gilbert. I love all things history, but WWII holds much of my interest due to the fact that my grandfather was a POW in WWII after his plane was shot down. My father (his son) was a fanatic with all things WWII and it just kind of trickled down.

I'll have to go back and read your comments, but now i just have time to add mine. One of the things that stuck out in Chapter 1 was the shift that happened in Rudolph when he shot and killed his first person.

Page 14
"Taking a deep breath, Rudolf raised his gun, set his sights and fired. It was his first kill.

After a few moments, he raised is gun again and started shooting, rapidly, round after round, "as if the spell was broken." Rudolf had discovered within himself a new skill: he could kill, efficiently and quickly, in the heat of battle."

I thought his recollection of how he felt during that moment was also interesting.

Page 14
"Rudolf recalled feeling mixed emotions during his first battle. He found it "exciting," but when he later walked across the field he had "hesitantly and timidly" looked at the Indian soldier that he had killed and felt "a little queasy."

I wonder how much this one moment shaped his future, if it did at all.

Hi, my name is Kristjan, I'm living in Columbus, Ohio, and I don't have a degree in History. In fact, History was my most despised subject in school. It didn't help that we went up to WWII and stopped there, just when it was about to get interesting! I am a scientist, but I have grown to like History, especially as it relates to WWII. I have found the post-WWII hunt for Nazis rather fascinating since I read about the hunt for Adolf Eichmann.

by Neal Bascomb (no photo)

Hi , I am Michael from Connecticut. After reading the Prologue it reminded me of book Flags of our Father where James Bradley did not know about his fathers role of raising the flag at Iwo Jima.
As I read the book I will know more about the individuals.
However, this gets me thinking is really not unusual for family members to talk about their service whether they part of historical event or not part of historical event. I know my own father has not told me much about his service during the Korean War. Unfortunately I never met my mother’s father who served in Word War II and I believe got a Bronze star. So I guess we should cherish the members that do tell us their stories.









Flags of Our FathersX

Hello everyone- just checking in and making a quick comment. After this weeks reading I was thinking about the major influence that WW I had on the people and cultures and lead them to WW II. As others have mentioned before, that seems to reverberate here in our opening chapters. The devastation and outcome hung like the sword of Damocles over an entire generation. Whether it caused many to embrace nothingness, Dadaism, Modernism or Hedonism in the arts or lifestyle, or pacifism or socialism in politics and appeasement in foreign policy; there were still others, like Hitler and his ilk, who felt shame and sought power and revenge. WW I is so foreign to my students (I am a History adjunct at a local college) precisely because it is so difficult for them to understand the causes and outcome. I think partly because they try to understand it as winners and losers- and despite the fact there was indeed a "winning" side- so little was "won" in a modern sense and every war, both past and present, are compared (in their minds) to either a "good" war (IE: WW II) or a "bad" war (IE: Vietnam). Yet, by understanding it better- in context- it can really help us understand the 20s, 30s and 40s- and how it affected nations of people. It helps add some vital pieces to the puzzle of our modern world.

The modern historiography in academics puts much less emphasis on military and political history, and to my mind that is a detriment. Social issues, culture and 'ism' or 'label' histories don't exist in a vacuum. There is no reason to solely focus on one and not on others, precisely because people don't behave or make choices that way- it all influences them. As we see in the very opening of this book, they have played such an influential role on these and other individuals. It doesn't excuse the actions of the Nazis, for example, but understanding the time, WWI and its influence and the manipulative politics, helps us to make sense of it, and perhaps (we hope) help us learn from it and deter it from happening again. Technology, toys and customs change and evolve throughout history, but human nature, at its most fundamental level, does not. We can grasp better what drives not just events, but people, and the choices they make.

What say you?

Sorry for the long post. I got carried away with my "quick comment", lol.

Michael wrote: "Hi , I am Michael from Connecticut. After reading the Prologue it reminded me of book Flags of our Father where James Bradley did not know about his fathers role of raising the flag at Iwo Jima.
As..."

Michael.....I tend to agree with you that many veterans don't talk about their experiences, especially if they were in combat. I have friends and family that were in Viet Nam and they do not like to describe what happened there which is understandable..

BTW, when citing a book that is not the book that we are discussing, please follow the citation guidelines. The book should look like this:

by James D. Bradley

Thanks.

John.......interesting post. And the idea (or fact in this instance) that "isms" and social/cultural conditions played a huge part in the rise of Nazism and the acceptance of the party ideology by the masses cannot be ignored.The "stab-in-the-back" of the Versailles Treaty was something that many Germans could not forgive.....the army never surrendered, the politicians were responsible. Like a burr under a horses saddle the idea festered and many political movements arose during that time. I think Hitler was in the right place at the right time since he, as a two time Iron Cross winner in the Great War, was seeking revenge. From that type of leadership at a vulnerable time, the common man will do uncommon things. So Rudolph was not alone and not much different from others who wanted to make Germany a world power again. The means to achieve this did not seem to bother them.

The book noted below illustrates how World War I provides a bridge to study both crowd behavior and battlefield behavior by illustrating how ordinary people are transformed into savages by great events. And in a later period and different context, Hannah Arendt gave this strange capacity of the ordinary to be transformed into the extraordinary the name "banality of evil".

by Gustave Le Bon
Hannah Arendt

I agree, Jill - and I hope I didn't come across as saying "isms" and social/cultural history aren't important- quite the opposite. I was attempting to say all aspects of history play a part and influence the generation of Germans, English, etc that lived those events. If you study just the political questions, you miss out on the cultural contexts and vice versa. We really need to consider all- as all those things influenced them. One aspect of historical query cannot stand by itself is all.

And I also agree that Hitler was certainly manipulating and pushing the right buttons at the right times. The murders of the German people- even some of his own associates- (Night of the long knives, etc) during that rise to power demonstrate he had no fear or regard for consequences - just his vision fixed on his mad dream. What has been interesting to me is how close some of his generals came, before Austria and Poland, to planning to take him out and take control.

Hello everyone! Looking forward to reading the book and the discussion.

Proving to be a very interesting read. Hoss appears to have suffered a rather frosty and controlling childhood between the attempted kidnapping and his enlistment into the military at the tender age of 14 experiencing carnage and various injuries - all could have contributed to the man he became. Somewhere something went haywire. Looking forward to more of Hoss to be revealed.

Hello - I am from North Carolina and I'm excited to be reading this book. I have a strong interest in history in general, but especially WWII due to family stories passed down from my grandfathers and their experiences in both theaters of the war.

The Prologue I found to be very well written. Harding provides a very personal justification for his investigation into this story. He also strikes me as an author who, despite that very personal reason, sets out to honor the memory of Hanns by giving this narrative a full and truthful account. There is a great quote on p. 3 that "This book is therefore a reminder of a more complex world, told through the lives of two men who grew up in parallel and yet opposing German cultures. It is also an attempt to follow the courses of the two men's lies, and to understand how they came to meet. And the attempt raises difficult questions. How does a man become a mass murderer? Why does a person choose to confront his persecutors? What happens to the families of such men? Is revenge ever justified?" I was hooked from here on.

Rudolf's childhood is interesting. It is always dangerous to attribute a causal relationship to a critical few specific events. Harding implicitly does this with his selection of anecdotes...and this is inevitable in any narrative history. The forcing of the Catholic faith on Rudolf by his father, coupled with the betrayal of the priest, seems to have confirmed for the future Rudolf that he would not be governed principally by Catholic dogma. That he later found his father-figure in battle, under the leadership of a military officer, opens the possibility at least for his role in implementing Hitler's final solution. As a fifteen year old, he had killed in warfare, shown icy calm under fire, lost his father, had previously been kidnapped by Gypsies, and lied his way into the First World War. Wow.

I don't know about the effect of Baden Baden on Rudolf. That he grew up isolated is interesting, and I don't know what to make of his childhood attachment to his horse. Baden Baden, with its tourist destination status, did not seem to impact him in a way that it could have, bringing him into contact with Europeans of diverse backgrounds.

I'm interested to learn, per John's post above, how Rudolf, with the very strange mix of experiences and emotions in his mid-teens, dealt with the German humiliation post WWI, and whether or not he was swept into the currents of various ideologies in the interwar years.

Hi everyone, I'm Kristen from the Seattle area. I'm recently married and my new in-laws grew up in Germany during WWII. Needless to say, between their stories and my own curious mind, I'm deeply interested in WWII history and culture.

I was raised Catholic but am no longer active in the Catholic Church, so I can relate to some of Rudolf's early religious experiences. I can understand the impact that the contractions of the Church could have on a developing and impressionable youth. That said, I personally am more curious to learn about the impact that Rudolf's relationship with his parents and his early taste of war may have had on his capacity for evil.

Looking forward to an intriguing and engaging group read.

I appreciate everyone's comments. And good to get to know each of you a bit better. Great start for the book.

I just wanted to recommend a movie as a good complement to this book: "Hannah Arendt." It's a foreign film about Hannah Arendt's coverage of the Eichmann trial, including real footage from the trial. What puzzles me is why Eichmann didn't kill himself when caught as so many other Nazis did.

Kressel wrote: "I just wanted to recommend a movie as a good complement to this book: "Hannah Arendt." It's a foreign film about Hannah Arendt's coverage of the Eichmann trial, including real footage from the tria..."

If I remember correctly, when caught, Eichmann was under very tight suicide watch. Consider that he was not caught until 15 years after WWII ended, so he was no longer on the run, anticipating capture. He was merely living his life quietly in Buenos Aires raising teenage sons.

Thanks for the movie recommendation. I'll have to check that out.

Welcome everybody -

Discussion Question:

One of the ten commandments is "Thou shalt not kill."

How did Rodolf Hoss with the religious background that he had as a child ignore all of those religious and moral teachings and ultimately turn his back on his childhood spirituality? How could he think that it was OK to become the Kommandant of Auschwitz?

Hi, I am Heather and I work at a WWII museum so I see WWII veterans usually on a daily basis.

What I found interesting from the prologue is not that Hanns didn't talk about his WWII experiences or after experience- as that is common with many veterans of all wars but that the family knew nothing about it at all really. Usually there is a hint or "family gossip/rumor" about what occurred or someone from outside the family will come to interview as finding the kommandant was a big deal. I am very interested to keep reading to see how this all comes about as I find that you learn more about history from the "everyman participants" than the larger figures and leaders.

Also, I don't see anything so far that exceptionally stands out about Rudolf's childhood that hints at what horrors he would commit later in life as we all have had an adult somehow let us down or are not raised religiously and don't go on to do what he did so I am also curious how this seemingly average child becomes what he becomes. Was there a larger later incident??? hmmm must read on or does he just use Nazi ideology as an excuse to do what he feels compelled to do?

Thanks Kressel and Kristjan. Hannah Arendt wrote many books including one on Eichmann. Here are a couple on World War II.

by Hannah Arendt