Å·±¦ÓéÀÖ

Absolutely, James - no matter who said it!
The governments around the world have been hoaxed and now they dare not admit it for looking foolish.

The "peer review" process as I see it is just another way to control the narrative.

The following is paraphrased from Pierre-Marie Robitaille. I don't know who he is but I agree with what he said.

"Peer review is only good for confirming what is known and accepted in the general consensus of the scientific field. If you present anything that is not common in that field it will be rejected. You have no choice but to present your findings outside of peer review if it is a concept not accepted in the scientific consensus."

yes

Roth wrote: ""Peer review is only good for confirming what is known and accepted in the general consensus of the scientific field. If you present anything that is not common in that field it will be rejected. You have no choice but to present your findings outside of peer review if it is a concept not accepted in the scientific consensus."..."

So like a scientific Wikipedia, you mean?

So like a scientific Wikipedia, you mean?

Yes, kind of like that. Here's another comment I think that sums it up in a nutshell. I especially like the definition of science.

“As I have said many times before, “science� and “scientists� ain’t the same thing. A fast and easy definition of “science� is, “a systematic enterprise that builds and organizes knowledge in the form of testable explanations and predictions about the universe.� Is that what we have in dealing with the ChiCom virus? Hardly. We have in many respects the same sort of pseudo-science that exists in the Global Climate Change scam: a bunch of models that predict nothing, based, at best, on erroneous assumptions, i.e., guesses, and data changed to suit the winds not of nature but of politics and funding. As with the Global Climate Change nonsense, the “theories� or “models� in the ChiCom virus pandemic are not falsifiable, in other words, they do not make “testable explanations and predictions.�

Never forget, anybody can call himself a “scientist,� just as anybody can become a “journalist,� or a “consultant.� “Scientists,� even good ones, have obligations, personal aspirations, political agendas, and, let us not forget, egos just as much as anybody else does. They need to pay the mortgage, too. Throughout history, we find “scientists� going where money, power, and prestige beckon.

Recent decades, of course, have seen an explosion in the population of “scientists.� Look at how many college majors have the word “science� attached to their description. We have gone well beyond the white-haired chemist or physicist thinking deep thoughts while conducting replicable and falsifiable experiments. We have the political activist posing as the concerned and caring expert; we have the bureaucrat protecting his fief posing as the expert. We live in an era of mountebanks with access to enormous megaphones and power.�

Well said, Roth. The medical establishment in particular has sold out to Big Pharma and the doctors in the U.K. and elsewhere who are largely going along with this plandemic scam are a disgrace to their profession.

Ian wrote: "As for the science, there is a lot more to the science of this virus than IFRs. When you say "if there will be a surprise and it turns out to be a Spanish Flu mega virus, then by all means come back.." I can take a hint...."

That was a figure of speech, Ian - as in, feel free to come back with hard science that reflects your beliefs about this virus - so, no hard feelings!

‘We see no point in wearing a face mask,� Sweden’s top virus expert says as he touts the country’s improving COVID numbers

As other countries face renewed outbreaks, Sweden’s latest Covid-19 figures suggest it’s rapidly bringing the virus under control.

“That Sweden has come down to these levels is very promising,� state epidemiologist Anders Tegnell told reporters in Stockholm on Tuesday.

The Health Agency of Sweden says that since hitting a peak in late June, the infection rate has fallen sharply. That’s amid an increase in testing over the period. “The curves are going down and the curves for the seriously ill are beginning to approach zero,� Tegnell said.

Doctors explain the death and psychological devastation caused by lockdown

Um, er, I thought the ONLY way to get success in this "war against an invisible enemy" was to lockdown, wear masks, wait for vaccine and pray... Just don't mention Sweden ;)


Good Covid-19 News From Italy...and Sweden
The countries' policies for taming the outbreak couldn't have been more different, but their current success in avoiding a resurgence should be heeded.

Once again, and following on from the aforementioned best estimates from the top infectious disease bodies of about 20 nations (including the US and UK), Afghanistan is another nation which now says about a third of their population have already had the virus...

Over 10M Afghans infected with COVID-19
Study by Health Ministry finds over 31% of entire population contracted virus

10 Million Afghans Likely Infected and Recovered From COVID-19: Survey

Another 0.01% IFR fatality rate estimate (1 in every 1,000 estimated to die, better than the worst Influenza seasons), this time a medical study from the Middle East...


Qatari researchers led by Dr Laith J. Abu Raddad from Cornell University, Doha, used a mathematical model to get an idea of how many people in Qatar had been infected over the pandemic.

The model was based on data about how the SARS-Cov-2 naturally spreads in a population and the results of a series of studies in Qatar that used swab and antibody tests until around the date July 10.

The model showed that the IFR was 0.01 per cent, which was 'remarkable', the researchers said.


Characterizing the Qatar advanced-phase SARS-CoV-2 epidemic

Laith J. Abu Raddad PhD,1,2,3* Hiam Chemaitelly MSc,1,2 Houssein H. Ayoub PhD,4 Zaina Al
Kanaani PhD,5 Abdullatif Al Khal MD,5 Einas Al Kuwari MD,5
Adeel A. Butt MD,5 Peter Coyle
MD,5 Andrew Jeremijenko MD,5 Anvar Hassan Kaleeckal MSc,5 Ali Nizar Latif MD,5
Robert C.
Owen MD,5
Hanan F. Abdul Rahim PhD,6
Samya A. Al Abdulla MD,7
Mohamed G. Al Kuwari
MD,7
Mujeeb C. Kandy MSc,7 Hatoun Saeb MSc,
7 Shazia Nadeem N. Ahmed MD,8 Hamad Eid
Al Romaihi MD,8 Devendra Bansal PhD,8 Louise Dalton MA,8 Sheikh Mohammad Al Thani
MD,
8 and Roberto Bertollini MD8
1
Infectious Disease Epidemiology Group, Weill Cornell Medicine-Qatar, Cornell University,
Doha, Qatar
2
World Health Organization Collaborating Centre for Disease Epidemiology Analytics on
HIV/AIDS, Sexually Transmitted Infections, and Viral Hepatitis, Weill Cornell Medicine–Qatar,
Cornell University, Qatar Foundation � Education City, Doha, Qatar
3
Department of Population Health Sciences, Weill Cornell Medicine, Cornell University, New
York, New York, USA
4
Department of Mathematics, Statistics, and Physics, Qatar University, Doha, Qatar
5
Hamad Medical Corporation, Doha, Qatar
6
College of Health Sciences, QU Health, Qatar University, Doha, Qatar
7
Primary Health Care Corporation, Doha, Qatar
8
Ministry of Public Health, Doha, Qatar

This from Anonymous is a must watch...A Medical Industrial Complex being utilized to change our world irrecoverably by the looks...

"Watch Within the Next 24 hrs" - Can You See What's Happening?

I'm a New Zealander...And here's my opinion on all the positive headlines over the last few months about NZ's "success story" (reportedly due to it's super strict first lockdown), and about our Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern, and international praise about NZ taking the opposite approach of Sweden....

PURE...BS!
ALL of it!

NZ cannot afford this approach long term. And yet long term lockdowns/quarantines is what it'll likely be...Given that tonight NZ after only 4 new confirmed cases (after having ZERO new cases in 102 days) has just decided this...

Ms Ardern said Auckland would now move to level three restrictions for three days as a "precautionary approach", while level two restrictions would be imposed in the rest of the country.

Ardern = Draconian Socialism, but decision making delivered with the smile of a protective nanny...

yes. complete reform of the economy, digital health passports, AI policing & contact tracing. Get the whole world on something similar to communist China's social credit system. disgraceful.

Anyone see "High Noon"? A great flick. Here's the sequel...

Aucklanders return to Level 3 at high noon NZ time today and the rest of NZ returns to Level 2 albeit for 3 days only. Judging by the comments on radio talkback Kiwis ain't too happy about this return to "the new normal"... More are suggesting this is about something more than just a virus.

Ha ..Lance, High Noon is my favorite film - an existential Western about Mcarthyism. I wonder how the virus got back in to NZ?

James Morcan, I am in tears, & have been on and off for 22 hours. I am in Auckland, my daughter in law had surgery this morning, and my son hasn't been allowed to see her, although he spent the day at the hospital in hopes of being allowed to see her. Why is beyond me to understand. She's tested negative and he is immune compromised. Why can't they be together after shoulder surgery? I am fed up with this, it's only day 1 of what won't be 3, more likely 63.

Debby wrote: "James Morcan, I am in tears, & have been on and off for 22 hours. I am in Auckland, my daughter in law had surgery this morning, and my son hasn't been allowed to see her, although he spent the day..."

yes NZ revealing very ominous signs and long-term infrastructure being put into place.

What's hilarious is America had 47,000 confirmed cases overnight, and NZ had 4, yet NZ goes back into lockdown again and America it's business as usual (and most Americans seem happy with that).

James, it's totally bizarre. On a personal note, both my son's have yelled at me today for being non compliant. (They both adore Jacinda and believe everything she says)

Same here, Debby.
My two sons think I am going crazy and it makes me question my own sanity - until I read other people’s views on platforms such as this,

Anni, One of my sons is a nurse, the other is immune compromised, they both have compelling reasons to believe the general "correct" view. They are both very conformist, it reminds me of my generation at their ages, whose watchword was "question authority". Both my son's have become the kind of person who would not have been my friend in the olden days.

Debby, that is so sad.
As you say, our generation (I’m assuming we are roughly the same age) would have been on the streets in their thousands by now in protest at the loss of liberty. I reckon that is why the older generation have been particularly targeted with this scam to kill them off because they can remember how it used to be and will never put up with the ‘new normal�.

2020 is The Great Sheeple Awakening. But various sheeple will awaken at different times. Our job is to just keep speaking our truth, as I am coming across so many friends of mine who were totally closed only a few weeks or months ago, who are now saying "something feels wrong about this whole virus story"...or statements like that.

Oh I do hope so, James!
If nothing I say can change the minds of those who refuse to see what is happening around them, can you suggest a foolproof way of waking them up faster? - i.e. some video link or article to an argument they can’t possibly refute or ignore!
What made you see the light so soon?

Anni wrote: "Oh I do hope so, James!
If nothing I say can change the minds of those who refuse to see what is happening around them, can you suggest a foolproof way of waking them up faster? - i.e. some video link or article to an argument they can’t possibly refute or ignore!
What made you see the light so soon?..."

I guess I saw the light as I saw The Light (out of body experiences as a pre-teen and teen). But I also do not think anybody's level is comparable to anyone else - we are all on our own unique soul journey. So I never feel superior or inferior to anyone else and don't overstate or understate my own perspective on things.

As to what can change peoples minds...It's tricky and depends on the individual really...Some people can be awakened by facts, others need to hear a different narrative, others need investigative journalism that challenges the official story.

This Anonymous doco on the Rona response is not a bad one

Thanks James, I'll follow that up.

With the emphasis on the NZ return to lockdown thanks to 4 cases, nobody seems to have focused on why this has occurred. In my view, it must be through a leak in the border, yet so many people keep making excuses, and "understand" the selfish few who violated the rules. Now so many will pay.

As for which approach is the right one, time might tell, except I am unsure that we have worked out the right approach yet. It would be odd if Russia and/or China had worked out the best one, given what everyone else is prioritizing

Tony wrote: "Ha ..Lance, High Noon is my favorite film - an existential Western about Mcarthyism. I wonder how the virus got back in to NZ?"

High Noon was trumped (excuse poor choice of phrase) by The Magnificent Seven (Yul Brynner) in my opinion. I recall I got a 4-week advance on my pocket money, which enabled me to see that film on the big screen four times as a lad!

The virus got back by returnees from overseas infecting others, which will always happen unless we become truly isolationist ala ancient Japan. In the long term I suspect we just have to learn to live with Covid-19(48) as we've done with the common flu (as opposed to the coronavirus flu strain which I believe it is despite what the scientists tell us).

Lance, that isn't quite correct. If the quarantine period was strictly managed, those cases would have been contained. Following General Wesley Clark's dictum, the plan was good but they failed to make it work

Ian wrote: "In my view, it must be through a leak in the border, yet so many people keep making excuses, and "understand" the selfish few who violated the rules. ..."

Defining what is "selfish" in this environment is also still to be determined, I would argue.

Lance wrote: "Tony wrote: "In the long term I suspect we just have to learn to live with Covid-19(48) as we've done with the common flu (as opposed to the coronavirus flu strain which I believe it is despite what the scientists tell us)...."

Assume you mean Covid-19(84)!

Ian wrote: " If the quarantine period was strictly managed, those cases would have been contained. ..."

That's also still an assumption.
If the aforementioned leading infectious disease experts who predict 10-20% of the populations of the US, Iran, UK, Australia, Afghanistan etc, have already been infected, then it would not be likely that new cases came in via overseas. Far more likely would be that it would be in the Kiwis have have already been infected.

Note also that this is precisely why numbers of proven infected go up the more you test (according to this scientific theory). i.e. you find more of those in the population with the virus.

Granted tho, I think in NZ, and to a lesser extent Australia, it is possible the numbers who have already been infected would be lower, perhaps much lower than say the US or European nations - simply due to our isolation. So instead of the global standard estimate of 10% of our population, it could even be as low as 1% of our 5M population (50.000) or even only 25,000 Kiwis who have or already have had the virus...

But note that what I describe above with basic estimates of being around 10-20% of each population having the virus, is the prevailing scientific consensus internationally. Doesn't mean it's correct necessarily, of course, but it's been studied now for well over 6 months so likely to be true I would guess.

Once again, that all goes back to the difference between IFR and CFR. Sorry to be a broken record, but this is the aspect that has lead to the massive overreaction and even hysterical fear in populations. Viruses death tolls suddenly look a LOT less scary when you take into account the IFR (which again is the ONLY fatality rate that ever matters).

Tony wrote: "Ha ..Lance, High Noon is my favorite film - an existential Western about Mcarthyism."

Thanks Tony. I need to check out High Noon again, you've sold it to me!

James - selfish - inn this case, focusing on personal rights, real or imagined, and totally leaving aside obligations.

This has nothing to do with IFR. If it were true that there were no community cases for somewhere close to 100 days, then there would have been a good number of reproductive cycles, and if it cannot reproduce, a virus dies. If it were not true, apart from whatever caused this latest problem, then it must have been a very mild virus indeed because nobody noticed it over that period. I cannot prove it, but I think it was introduced from incoming passengers quite recently and we were in control of it for a while, possibly more by good luck than good management.

I also disagree that one down it could not be kept down. If there is none circulating, fresh doses have to come across the border. We have a very wide border with anyone else. You cannot swim across the Tasman of the Pacific. You can control the border and quarantine people so they are only released when healthy. By and large, that succeeded, but there were a small number who refused to obey the rules. Hence my comment. We had a good plan but failed to make it work. Thanks to that failure, and being a little soft at the border, a large number of small businesses will go to the wall. But who cares about them?

Ian wrote: "I cannot prove it..."

Correct - as I said, an assumption - and also, a minority scientific opinion - as stated (and shown with various links to comprehensive international studies in this discussion thread posted over last week or two) the world's leading infectious disease experts globally (e.g. at the CDC, WHO, London's Imperial College etc etc) estimate around 10% on average of populations of nations are, or have already been, infected by this virus.

Now as you well know, minority scientific opinions sometimes turn out to be true - so I'm not saying you are necessarily wrong nor would I dare to definitively comment as I'd be totally stepping out of school. Simply pointing out your assessment (i.e. that there were zero cases in NZ as opposed to "zero CONFIRMED cases") is very much a minority scientific opinion in this instance.

So once more, the ONLY thing that ever matters with any virus is the IFR. Confirmed cases vs confirmed deaths is the CFR (which you are still continually focusing on without realizing it, I assume)...Besides being a handy stat for within hospitals (e.g. planning for beds and figuring out how many patients will die), the CFR is practically useless when it comes to assessing actual virus spread and true fatality rate.

So as PM Ardern has said over the last 48 hours, there will be a huge increase in testing from here on. As that occurs, expect to find many more in the NZ population who have this virus but were not previously detected (as far less testing was going on), rather than just those who can be directly traced to others. That's if the NZ follows the international trend or even the Australian trend.

As for the selfish thing, that is an assumption too. It depends how this plays out, if you think about it...

For example, if it ultimately turns out that this virus has a very low IFR fatality rate somewhere in the vicinity of Influenza even (let's say, for the sake of argument, just to play Devil's Advocate), then those who rebel against such an extreme and draconian overreaction could ultimately turn out to be selfless martyrs (given they will be punished for their transgressions).

Remember, history is full of examples where the law was ethically or morally wrong...

James, my argument that there apparently zero cases was based on the argument that if the virus was active, either it was so mild that it was not noticed, or it really was not there. If it were there it should go on its happy way because everywhere else it is sending people to hospitals. With nobody getting particularly sick, it probably wasn't around.

I would also argue that IFR may not be the most important statistic. That is based on the discrete states dead or not dead, but that may not be all of it. As I posted somewhere, there is a woman here who got the virus, and is statistically stated to have "recovered" because she no longer tests positive for it. The difficulty is, she is damaged. Where before she was athletic, now she is struggling to do even ordinary tasks like hanging out the washing. She most certainly cannot return to employment, and I would argue that is a further long-term problem we have yet to deal with.

I can assure you there are other diseases that affect people like that. My wife got infected with brucella when about 40. She never recovered more than about 50% of her previous strength and could not return to employment for the rest of her life. Brucella is regarded as a mild infective agent, like a mild cold, apart from about 2% of the cases, where it acts more like typhoid. We have yet to see the long term consequences of this SARS virus because we have yet to reach the long term.

I'm jumping in here out of context to Covid-19. I've been out of circulation, since I underwent cataract surgery. (It's made my vision brighter not better.) Living here in Germany we get a lot of news coming in from the states. Mostly negative. I can't see why people are not paying attention to the suggestions of keeping distance and wearing a mask. The US is now leading in Covid-19 cases. Sad! One theory why nothing is being done by the president's lack of concern is he's making it part of his swamp-draining. This concerns me because I'm part of it. Draining the swamp is getting rid of all the freeloaders taking treasury money: Social Security, Welfare, government pensions, Medicare benefits, and private pensions controlled by private industry. Even though we contributed to our retirement, it still drains the coffers--private and public.

The president's aim is to strengthen American and weaken the populace. Setting the scenario to his dictatorship.

Like to hear your views: Tchuess...EN Heim

Sweden’s success shows the true cost of our arrogant, failed establishment

"So now we know: Sweden got it largely right, and the British establishment catastrophically wrong. Anders Tegnell, Stockholm’s epidemiologist-king, has pulled off a remarkable triple whammy: far fewer deaths per capita than Britain, a maintenance of basic freedoms and opportunities, including schooling, and, most strikingly, a recession less than half as severe as our own."

James ardern's said that everyone who tests positive will be held in custody. No wonder we're scared of being tested

Did she actually use the word custody?? Surely not.

No, to be fair, she didn't. She just said "a managed facility".

And also to be fair, these are people with the virus, and they will have full medical help onsite. Why is it unreasonable to try to help their recovery, and stop them spreading it?

sigh, Ian J Miller, if they don't need medical help, and most do not, why can't they stay at home? Why do they need to be treated like criminals to "stop them spreading it"?

Ian wrote: "Why is it unreasonable to try to help their recovery, and stop them spreading it?"

That would be very reasonable for a highly fatal virus like the Spanish Flu, Ebola, SARS etc.

For a virus with a low fatality rate, like one say in the vicinity of a bad Influenza season, it would be extremely unreasonable, especially the longer this goes on...It would be catastrophic, in fact (catastrophic in terms of human rights violations, economic destruction and limitations for non-virus healthcare). What would be reasonable in that instance would be to allow life to continue roughly as normal, ala the Swedish model...Just as we allow Influenza to spread thru our populations each year, despite sometimes having massive death tolls in certain seasons (e.g. as posted earlier in this thread, the CDC estimates the deadly 2017-2018 Influenza season killed 80,000 in America over that winter season alone, and that same season is estimated to have killed 1-1.5M globally).

So let's move away in talking in broad narratives, or regurgitating the laws being implemented as if their existence proves something, and instead lets allow the science do the talking: How deadly is this virus? Is this a mega fatal virus or is it one with fairly low fatality rate?

Ian, you are not a government advisor by any chance? I’ve heard of playing the devil’s advocate, but I’m starting to suspect you’ve got ‘skin in the game� to use a modern expression.

Anni wrote: "Ian, you are not a government advisor by any chance? I’ve heard of playing the devil’s advocate, but I’m starting to suspect you’ve got ‘skin in the game� to use a modern expression."

Leave Ian alone, Anni, you cruel lady!

Ian is someone who has been invited into the Underground to study here in our lab (but please don't tell him)...

You see, we are experimenting to see how much a citizen will blindly trust his government, and what it'll take to wake him up. Is it possible to awaken? Will he ever suspect foul play? Or will it take the army marching down his street and being locked in his house 24/7 before the penny finally starts to drop that "something is very wrong here"? :)

They call it THE GREAT RESET | "Planned to the smallest detail"

@James : ha ha ! That was my other theory about Ian - he must be a stooge, allowed on here to give you someone to trounce in every argument 😉

Anni wrote: "@James : ha ha ! That was my other theory about Ian - he must be a stooge, allowed on here to give you someone to trounce in every argument 😉"

To be fair, I think there's probably a lot more topics Ian could trounce me in during discussions than the other way around.

I just think 2020 is a very confusing situation for many and it probably requires a bit of "underground knowledge" to make the subtle connections between all these unusual events we are enduring. Some people, due to either their psychological make-up or the under-reported topics they have researched, are simply more hardwired to seeing what's going on. That's all it is really and nobody else in the common people will ever be my enemy (even if some sectors of the public may view me as their enemy).

Plus, we need skepticism (in all directions) and the truth in my experience is usually never found in one opinion anyway - there's usually a bit of truth and a bit of falsehood on all sides of any argument.

So it's all good Anni, and don't worry a veteran Undergrounder like me is indestructible...But I'm pleased you are now an Undergrounder too :)